Mastering Brand Strategy: How Creative Businesses Can Stand Out with Laura Pearlstein Mills

In this episode of Kaffeen Espresso, I sit down with my former colleague and strategic powerhouse, Laura Pearlstein Mills—founder of Cider. With over 15 years of brand strategy experience spanning luxury fashion, FMCG, logistics, and tech, Laura shares insights into the power of purpose-driven branding, her experience on the prestigious WPP fellowship, and how her multi-disciplinary career has shaped her unique perspective.

We discuss:

• The impact of the WPP fellowship and how it shaped Laura’s career
• What agencies can learn from smaller businesses when it comes to talent development
• The balance between staying niche vs. chasing trends
• How brands can lead in times of political and economic uncertainty
• The power of listening in creative business success
• Laura’s move between agency and client-side roles and what she’s learned along the way

It’s an insightful conversation about brand strategy, industry evolution, and the importance of adaptability in business.

🔗 Connect with Laura Pearlstein Mills:
Website: https://www.ciderbrand.co/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurapearlsteinmills/

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Transcript

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 1:16

Welcome to the Kaffeen Espresso podcast today, and I am so excited to say I have got an old colleague of mine and a self described true left and right brain thinker, which I can completely testify to. Laura has over 15 years of international and interdisciplinary brand strategy, marketing, communications experience, and she believes passionately in the power of purpose and creativity to spark behavior change, business results, and employee engagement. Having worked across industries as varied as packaged goods, luxury fashion, logistics, and tech, Laura brings rigorous thinking and compelling narratives to her clients brands, whether they're blue chip behemoths or scrappy startups. She began her career on the prestigious WPP fellowship, which we're going to touch on during this conversation and has worked in New York and London for global creative agencies, including Ogilvy, Landor and Brand Opus, which is where we work together. Laura graduated from Dartmouth college with a degree in history, and she lives in Washington, DC with her husband and two children. So I'd like to welcome Laura Mills to the podcast today. Hi, Laura. I am so happy to be here and glad to see you. Me too. So this conversation originally started because you were in London last summer and we had a catch up at the Grind on London Bridge, I think, and Scorchio day, I think I had an iced coffee and was very sweaty and probably not completely with it, but it was super good to catch up with you because I feel like despite the odd email here and there and maybe a comment on social media, we haven't had a proper conversation since we worked together. And it was just really amazing to touch base with somebody who Has worked in a similar kind of background also has two kids, is balancing the life, the work, the everything, albeit on a different continent So, we, we chatted through how 2024 played out thus far for both of us and we thought it'd be really good to catch up. Later in autumn, although now it's January when we're recording this. Which, you know, just goes to show you the balance between work and home. But really good to kind of catch up on and extend the topics we talked about then. So yeah, how've

3:31

you been? I've been well, I've been well. We are having an arctic blast here, so it's a sharp contrast to the the heat wave that we experienced in London together last summer, but no, all is well my kids are back in school after a four day weekend, so you know, always a great day for working parents when your kids finally go back to school. No, it was MLK Day yesterday, right? MLK Day, and the inauguration, which

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 3:55

we just won't talk about. The less said the better. Yeah, it was just MLK Day. Okay. Day. Yeah, let's focus on

4:01

him. Let's focus on

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 4:02

him. So you've had some exciting news in the last week, which hopefully we're gonna touch on here as well. But I feel like that actually reinforces some of the topics we're going to talk about here. we touched on the WPP fellowship back in that intro. And I just want to ask you a bit more on that. You talked a lot about the fellowship when we've chatted before, emphasizing exposure to different areas of the industry and within agency, how has that shaped your view of creative businesses and. in kind of maybe a potted history of how you got to this point and how that kind of drove you on your career path.

4:41

Totally. So for me, the WPP fellowship, which sadly is not around in its at least not in its former form. It, it was central to both my sort of. Entree into this industry and my network within this industry and, and really the, the way that I view this industry. So it was a brilliant three year rotational scheme that Sir Martin Sorrell started back at around in the late nineties, I believe. And I, I graduated from university in 2007 and was really lucky to get onto the scheme straight out of school or university, I suppose, for your, for your British audience. And the premise of the fellowship was really to sort of train up the next generation of agency leaders for WPP. And really central to that, at least in Martin's view, was exposure to different markets. So the idea was that you would spend three different years in three different cities or even on three different continents. I only made it to two because I got stuck in London and fell in love with both the city and my now husband. And and also to spend three different years across different areas of the sort of marketing communications world, creative services world. And so I spent time in a traditional advertising agency in Ogilvy, New York at Landor in London branding. And then I finished up my, my fellowship working at a now defunct digital shop called Digit and then ended up doing a few months as well at Coley Porter Bell. So sort of doubling down on branding, which is really where a lot of my, of my passion sits. And I think that sense of having this. interdisciplinary lens through which you view the industry and the experience of working in different, even frankly, business structures, right? The difference between a retained relationship with a, with a client at at Ogilvy is very different to the project based work we tend to do in branding. And, you know, learning to use tools like Google analytics, which Sadly is kind of as far as I got in terms of digital tools, but I was addicted. Remember it was 2009. So I think Instagram launched while I was there. So that tells you, I mean, there was there was no Twitter. And certainly no Snapchat, no TikTok all the things. So it was a very different landscape when I was sort of dabbling in a digital first or digital only agency. Anyway, all this to say, I yeah. I've just always had that breadth of perspective really central to how I think about what my career could be. And then potentially also a little bit of a little bit of maybe more confidence than was deserved, but so the sense that I could do anything, that I was not constrained merely by sort of the type of agency I was in at the moment, but rather that I had the skills and the potential to flex across different areas of the creative services world.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 7:26

When you came to Brandopus, I remember just being in awe at your, your, so I, I think there's like a sometimes in agency world, the client is put so high on a pedestal that we're scared to say anything, scared to do anything. And I remember when you came in, you were just like, no, this is the way it is. This is an objective view of things. And I was just like, Who is this person and how is she younger than me and how does she, like, how can she objectively see all of this stuff? And I mean, I mean this in the nicest possible sense, you know, the, I, I feel like I looked on from afar and learned a lot from the way you approach projects, even though I wasn't a project based person. I think, you know, what, when you're talking through that, what I saw was somebody who I've seen lots of different facets of their clients businesses and worked in them in different ways, with them in different ways at different agency types. And so had a better understanding of, intuitive understanding, rounded understanding of what that client needed. Instead of just like whacking them over the head with, you need a redesign, you need a new website, you know, the same thing again and again. Regardless of who the client was, it felt like from what I could see, it felt like a tailored approach based on the true challenge that the client faced rather than what suited the agency. Would you say that's fair?

8:53

I mean, thank you. That's very kind. I think that's true. And I think another aspect of my own story that I haven't mentioned yet is the fact that I've worked, you know, the, the, the first few years of my career were spent in a. Pure strategy role. And then I actually had an interesting opportunity to get into agency operations. I was the chief of staff for Landor's Global CEO. Wow, I didn't know that. In a similar capacity for our head of key client relationships. And so I got to see under the hood of sort of the business of the agency in a way that was incredibly valuable. And you know, really, that was a real sort of once in a lifetime chance. I mean, it's very hard to get a perspective like that when you're in your mid twenties. And then from there I actually, because I was convinced that I too was going to be a CEO I shifted into more of an account management and account leadership role. And so I had all these different perspectives that I think, you know, have ultimately been incredibly valuable for me. And so by the time I, I came to Brand Opus, I had been up a strategist and had been an account lead. And so you can't unlearn way of thinking about things as a strategist, right? You, you sort of learn to go through the world in a certain way and think about things in a certain way, and you can't turn that off even you're. new business cards as account director. So yes, of course, you're responsible for running a profitable relationship with the client and managing resources internally and, you know, rallying the troops and getting the creatives on board and excited. But you're still thinking really critically about, about the, the client and their business. And so learning to sort of juggle all of those things has been really central, I think, to the success that I've had.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 10:33

And what do you say? I'm really curious, like, cause the, the, the fellowship sounds like it was. It was, you know, you said yourself it was to shape future agency leaders and hopefully they would remain in the WPP group, I expect is what he was anticipating with that program. So what, at what point did you shift from thinking, yes, I'm going to be a CEO to something different? Was it life changes or was it like a real passion for one particular area of what you do?

10:58

I'd say honestly, it was sort of life changes and a recalibration of my priorities and mental health and family and you know, an experience I had of leaving agency world altogether for a few years to go and work in the family business, which is a story for another day and best told over wine or coffee. But I think resetting my own sense of what success looks like and what. level of, of control I was looking for in my own career is ultimately what led me to go off on my own. I will go back and just make a point that the fellowship was successful and, but, you know, by many standards, I mean, certainly personally, many of my best friends are from the fellowship and I'm so grateful for the mentorship and everything that I was able to get through that program. And I ended up boomeranging. And so, you know, have very deep seated sort of love for the WPP that I grew up in. And many, many leaders within the firm were folks who graduated from the, from the fellowship. So there continue to be a lot of incredibly senior leaders who are peers of mine, who now have job titles that far surpass anything that I, that I've ever had who have really, you know, stuck it out and are, you know, are proof positive that that Perspective and, you know, the, the way that they hired and the way that they looked for talent, you know, has borne fruit really for the, for the group. So you know, the flip side of that is that it's several of us, it turns out we're a bit, a bit ornery and maybe chafed a little bit against the constraints of the corporate structure. And so some of us have gone completely wild and and left the industry altogether. And we've got folks who are artists and hotel consultants and doing all sorts of amazing other things, but got their start on the fellowship, just like I did.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 12:38

Katie Katie Brinsmead Stockham. She's, she was a friend through the fellowship as well, wasn't she? Yes, absolutely. Have you interviewed her? No, I haven't. Actually you connected us when I was in a tech startup and we had a conversation about her community strategy for the business, but it was at a time where she was really, she was kind of doubling down on hospitality and it was like a year or so before Hotel Hussy, which is how you can find her on Instagram, by the way. Completely recommend following her, even if you're not interested in that aspect of the industry, just incredible travel tips, if absolutely nothing else, she is just a force to be reckoned with. And and yeah, and, and so yeah, that, that, somebody who I kind of became aware of and then met nearly a decade ago now that you introduced me to, but I think I remember that you were together on the fellowship. Yeah, how interesting. Well, I think if nothing else, it, even if you didn't stay within the WPP. PP business long term, it certainly taught you something in terms of what you are looking for, and what, you know, how to be true to yourself. It sounds like it gave you a taster of everything that it was to be in that role, and then allowed you to make your own decision about it, rather than, you know, I think many people within agency will probably flail around in one role and have a vague idea of where they're going. At least you'd seen everything and knew all the different facets of it. And one of the things that we talked about beforehand was, you know, This kind of idea of, yes, this isn't done at WPP anymore in terms of that exact fellowship. There are other agencies doing it. Many of them are much larger scale, but we talked about the possibilities of that at a smaller scale. It's a smaller agency. Is there anything you could say from your experience that you could talk to kind of small to medium sized agency leaders about how they can develop a more rounded individual for their own company's benefit?

14:31

Yeah, I mean, I think just having that sort of multidisciplinary mindset as you think about Cultivating your talent as you think about recruiting your talent, it's very easy, I think, to say, okay, right, we've got a corporate ID job, we need to bring in a new account director, let's make sure that our new account director has done a lot of corporate ID jobs before, and it can become a very sort of box ticking exercise, and I think that can help. Skills are important to make sure it's very important to make sure your skill set is rock solid when you're when you're put into a new situation in a new project. But by the same token, there's, you know, there's a lot of folks who've had experience in maybe slightly different contexts who can still bring those skills to the table. And in turn, expand the minds or the perspectives of other folks on the team who maybe haven't worked in a PR role, for example, or, you know, if you've got folks who are bringing in more of a tech forward digital side of things. I mean, I remember that was something that 10 years ago, and I, I, I'm very convinced this is no longer the case, but pure play design agencies 10 years ago, really did not have any digital know how there was no there was very, it was a sort of a blinkered perspective of, you know, we're here to do design. We do design that's corporate ID systems or packaging maybe environmental design. And we are not. equipped to think about the way that this brand comes to life in the digital world, now obviously that would no longer be acceptable because everything's the digital world now and I know that design agencies have, have evolved in, in many ways to be able to, to compete at that level, but there's always going to be that next frontier and just making sure that you're not keeping yourself too narrow for the purpose. You know, maintaining your niche, niche, you know, expertise, deep expertise is good and important, but not to the exclusion of the opportunity to stretch and grow and learn and bring in talent that maybe can help diversify. Your agency in a meaningful way.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 16:49

And as you were talking, I was thinking, how do you, cause if you went down every single rabbit warren of exciting thing, you could end up with a company that's so diverse, right? In terms of your understanding of where trends might go and what clients might be asking for in a decade's time to the point that you are no longer profitable because you're chasing too many rabbits. How are there any kind of skill sets you'd recommend about how to kind of identify? Things that might become more important. So, something between being blinkered and staying on your route and being like a magpie and jumping around everywhere. Is there, is there something like, because it's probably not even like the word digital. It might be a different clue or tip that kind of helps you to understand that consumer behavior or brand behavior might be moving in that direction. Sorry, I put you on the spot. I was just

17:44

Oh, I mean, I think, I think it's, it's a valid question. And it is sort of honestly funny now to think that we used to talk about digital agencies. I mean, that's, that was a really big giveaway a few years ago, right? Anyone who's still talking about themselves as a digital creative director has lost the plot because everything is digital now. But this just shows you how old we are that we remember when that was still a thing. I mean, I think I would turn it back to the client always. Right. So what is the, what is your client need? Right. There's no, there are certainly no reason to. Spin up a new capability for which there is no demand. So I think there's the safest way to extend is probably born of a really strong client relationship and a client who is openly talking to you about what they need and maybe what they're struggling to find. And being able to sort of prototype up an offering around the needs of a specific client is probably the most fail safe way to do it from a business perspective, right? You don't want to. Necessarily spin your wheels and spend time and money, you know, developing a thing that's theoretical, right? Yeah. You wanna figure out a way for a client to pay you to spend your time and energy spinning up a thing. And you're probably only gonna get that from a client who really knows you and trusts you and thinks they've been on this journey with me. They've helped define my brand. They've helped me extend it into all these different ways. But actually I'm having this real trouble over here with maybe our thought leadership our executive thought leadership, which is an area that generally tends to be run by, you know, comms agencies, right? But if you are the agency that, for example, developed the brand voice and has been central in. Developing the arc of the brand narrative, it feels like it could be a natural extension if you have the relationship with the client to get them to trust you to give it a go and say, listen, we'd like to work with you and try to you know, build up more of an editorial offering. Can we partner on that and give it a try for six months and see how it goes? If that feels like a really safe way to try that. As opposed to a and now we are launching our new editorial studio that has its own website like do the work first get paid for the work and then take it to market I think is probably just a smart business bit of advice.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 20:00

Yeah, absolutely. And then you have the, not just the The, it paid for without the risk, but you also then have the testimonial, you have the case study, you have the results to be able to go find more of the same kind of people. As you're talking like a big theme for me, we've chatted about before is, is listening. It's just list, being an active listener and it's unbelievable how infrequently it happens. I still, I'm like trying to get to the bottom of why this is such a trend within this industry. I think it's kind of comes down to. Being protective of our own slice of the, the marketing pie, so to speak, when it comes to the budget that's available to a client and, you know, really kind of like, I'll bring in and say, no, this is the most important thing. This is where you should be focusing instead of listening to what the client saying about what the balance is. And, and, if you've got that strong trust with your client, not just floating the idea of, you know, offering a new service. to them and them being the beta test, but also speaking to them about what else are their challenges, what else are they facing, what, what do they struggle with, what do they, what are their hopes and dreams, and knowing full well that 90 percent of the answer is never something you're going to be able to offer them, but then knowing that you're absorbing information. About the actual client that you can then put into use in your marketing I feel like when people listen, when we listen actively and then repeat it back, the, the feedback that I hear most often, as I said before, here is people coming back and saying, it's like, you're psychic. I'm like, well, no, I'm not. I just, you told me this and I'm just repeating it back to you in a different format and giving our thoughts on it. Yeah. So I think we're all capable of doing that. Even if we're not about to start out a new branch of our business you know, we can use it to our advantage.

21:47

Completely. And I think the, that's something that's a skill that can be modeled from the top, but then I think there's also a really important job to empower your, you know, your mid level account folks and your design leaders. Exercise of listening is not just something that happens, you know, CEO to CMO, right? Agency CEO to client CMO, there, there, there better be some good listening happening there or this account is not long for this world. But that idea of helping folks within listening. The teams on both sides find their counterparts, develop those relationships and empower more people on the agency side to feel a sense of ownership and accountability for the work. I think I've been really struck by My own sort of perspective and enjoyment and frankly, I think the quality of my work has gone up since I've been out on my own because there's nothing else around me to buffer or prop me up, right? It's on me. I have to do all the things and I have to do all of the things very well. Otherwise, I don't have a business. Right. And it can feel, you know, at worst, agencies can feel very disempowering. You can feel like you're a cog in a very small cog in a very big machine and you are replaceable and nothing really rests on your shoulders. And I think empowering people on the agency side to feel a greater sense of ownership that they're running this, you know, process or machine or, you know, driving this car, pick a metaphor so that they have that sense of it's on me to make sure I'm doing everything to solve this client's business problem I think That's, that's the best possible outcome is for, is for everyone to feel a really strong sense of accountability, not just for, you know, delivering the files by the time we said we deliver the files, which is, you know, table stakes. But also like, what do I actually think this client needs? If I, you know, if someone just came up to me on the street and said, what do you actually think they need? Not, you know, what did your boss tell you you needed to do for them? Everything would get a lot better. And, and I think clients would get a lot more value.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 24:14

As you're talking, I'm thinking a lot of it is about empowering the more junior people to have more exposure to clients because the more senior people are going to be so caught up. I mean, like you said, they do need to be good listeners, otherwise there are bigger issues, but they're so caught up in the bigger logistics and the longer term stuff. Smaller people within the agency or the, you know, the earlier stage who are going to spot certain things, who are going to, they're going to see the detail if they're given the opportunity to have exposure to those clients. And that might be, that is the listening, so to speak. And, and not just having the opportunity to. To listen, but also to be heard when they repeat it back, because that I've seen in many agencies, there've been a lot of sheltering and protecting of the more junior people within a business. I don't think it benefits, like I, I can see the reasons for it, but I think in terms of listening in, I don't think it benefits either the client or the agency I'd say use those people. But anyhow, I'm, I'm at risk of going off on

25:14

one.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 25:15

So

25:16

I also raise an interesting point. I mean, One of the things I'm just thinking about as you're saying that is sort of navigating, obviously return to work and return to office rather is, is a big topic of conversation in the industry right now. And I run the sort of the comfort of my, of my basement spare room, which is my office. And I'm a, an agency of one. And so this doesn't really apply to me, but I'm so grateful that I came up through my twenties in agencies. before the pandemic, because I was living and breathing and absorbing so much by osmosis. And the mentorship and the just exposure that we got in person was so valuable. And I really feel for the 20 somethings who are working in agencies now who are doing everything through zoom, who don't get to sort of Watch their boss take a really tricky phone call. I mean, again, I don't know. I'm just feeling very dated. But, you know, I just I used to sit. I have vivid memories of sitting as a senior account manager at Landor in London and sitting next to my boss, who was an account director and having her get a phone call on the landline of her desk and answering it and having to You know, tap dance and really manage a tricky phone call and do it in real time. And she wasn't prepared, but she was gracious. And I saw how she didn't promise anything, but also listened really well and repeated back what she heard. And she said, let me get back to you in 90 minutes once I've regrouped with the team. So she managed expectations and she was very clear and she set boundaries and just got it. Those things just washed over me on a daily basis, right? And I don't know that you can do that in a fully remote world. That said, what you were talking about in terms of giving people more, you know, opportunity at a junior level to listen in on calls, it's probably a little bit easier to have folks listen in on calls via Zoom than to march into the client's office with 17 folks, you know, who've just taken the train up from London somewhere. I mean, that's, That's also inappropriate. So I, you know, now I'm arguing with myself about what, you know, which provides a greater opportunity for learning and exposure. I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle, as is always the case. But, but that that's, you know, if we can use, if we can use remote work for good in that kind of a situation where you're. Upfront with the clients and just say, listen, we're, we're trying to upskill our team. We're going to have some folks sitting on mute, observing this call so that we can use it as a teaching moment, obviously get the client's approval on that ahead of time. But anyone who's come up through a corporate structure respects the need for learning moments and this should be one of them.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 27:54

Yeah, absolutely. Wow. So we talked. a lot about how the fellowship gave you different opportunities within agency. And, you know, over the past few years, my experience interacting with Cider brand through your marketing and what I've heard from a mutual friend, Holly, and the kind of projects that you've been working on, You're really kind of mixing it up in terms of like the roles that you're taking on, and you've had some recent news about another potential client side, well, an actual client side role. Can you talk to me a bit about the, the kind of ballet dance between the the different sides of like the agency client divide and being somewhere in the middle?

28:36

Yeah, totally. So what you just referenced, I'll work sort of most recent backwards. I am going to be starting a four month contract through Cider, my consultancy, working actually on the client side. So I'm going to spend four months in a maternity cover role at a tech company in integrated marketing. And I've never worked client side. I'm an agency person through and through. So I'm excited about it. I think it's going to be a really great opportunity to test drive and sort of. try on for size what it is to be on the client side of things. I'm really lucky I am both friends and professional contacts with the woman who's going to be managing me in that capacity. So it feels like a really safe, Place to try this out. And I also I'm really excited about bringing all the things I've learned in my years of experience to this kind of a role within a within a tech company that's at a really exciting inflection point. So I'm excited about that. I think what you were mentioning was that I through Cider I have dabbled on both sides of the sort of freelance and consultancy landscape. So there are times when Cider plugs into an existing agency to supplement their strategic leadership or to stand in as a strategic leader where they have none. And then there's many times where I'm engaging directly with clients and pulling together my own team of designers, web developers, copywriters, etc. to service their needs as appropriate. And I'm, I really don't. make too much of a fuss about which side of that equation I sit on. I think the benefit to me of being open to doing both has both, you know, increased the number of opportunities that I have, right? If I say I'm only going to do freelance work, that means that I'm not geared up to work directly with clients as those opportunities come in. And likewise, if I'm only looking to do everything under the banner of Cider, then it closes myself off to opportunities where I can just. Slot in as a freelance strategy leader so trying to open up the landscape as much as possible. And I think it also gives me the chance to work with a greater variety of clients. I often have been working with larger clients under someone else's banner, and that's fine. I have loads of experience with big clients. for my big agency days. And it's nice to be able to flex that muscle. And similarly, it's fun to work with scrappy startups who have very limited budgets. But frankly, if all I did was work on scrappy startups, I wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage. So it's a balancing act. Parenting will teach you nothing if not. The fact that life is a balancing act, so I'm trying to just sort of bring that openness and flexibility to the way that I run my business, so as not to cut off any opportunities before they get started.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 31:19

There's something I don't think I can quite articulate, but I think I was trying to say about how when I was first observing you when we first met. Cause when we were together, was this kind of, had the sense that, and I can't remember if I said this at this point during the recording, but had the sense that the, the brand was at the center of what you did. This kind of like, it wasn't about the agency. It wasn't even about the client. It was the sense of responsibility to the actual the, the actual brand. This. inanimate being that the consumer has a relationship with and just as an observation and just like kind of looking at it from the outside I think it's easy to kind of, how to say this, like I think if you, we are, we like to put labels on ourselves in terms of like understanding where we fit into the world and I think there's something shape shifting and perhaps harder to manage internally but super admirable about being able to move between the different size and the of projects and the scale and budget and demands and not to mention work and home life, but there's something that feels like. It's all, it's all about the brand itself for you. You know, when you said that brand was your passion, you discovered that during that fellowship. Yeah, that's how it manifests to me when I, when I think about the work that you do. There wasn't a point there or even a question, but I, I find that really

32:48

interesting. I really like, I really believe this stuff, like I, I don't, like I, I actually think there is value in the work that we do, that it makes people feel better to work at a company that has values that have been aligned to the business opportunity, like I think that's just, there's a sense of craft to it I think the other reason, one of the other reasons I really love, um, branding and, and design within branding is, is the sense of craft My dad is a really beautiful writer and a successful journalist and my family has worked in fashion retail and in a very high end way and, and I, that sense of craft of, okay, there, here's a blazer, this blazer has been hand stitched by craftspeople in Italy and this is what that means and this is what we know about the time and the effort and the materials and I think designers in our world are oftentimes the truest expression of that dedication to craft. And I like that. I like working with craftspeople and I think the work that we do is a craft and I like to practice that craft. And I think that relates to what you're saying, that, that I, I really believe it. I don't, I don't think it's BS. I think, I think there's something magical and Textured and nuanced and beautiful about defining the emotional story at the heart of this commercial endeavor. I truly believe it is differentiating and beautiful and meaningful and people's lives. And I believe, I think, as the philosophy I have about brand, I guess, comes back to this idea that brand is as much an internal tool as an external tool. I don't think it's a marketing tool. layer that gets added on. I think it is foundational and central to, to the entity of this business. And so I really believe that. And so as a result, like I can get pretty excited about just about any brand because logistics, you know, I've spent a weird large amount of my. career thinking about logistics, which is strange, but also fascinating. But I've never been someone who gets really bent out of shape about like, Ooh, I want to work on this sexy brand or that sexy brand. Like I get really interested about just like the challenge and the business and the, the, the not that needs to be unpicked at the center of it all. Which I think comes back to craft.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 35:11

I have this ability to get super excited about clients, businesses, and they come off the calls and they're like. I don't feel that. I, I have never felt that excited about my business. Like, how did you manage to like, get this out of nowhere? I'm like, I don't know. I just have this energy that I need to like, I can see it and I want to channel it and I want to get excited about it.

35:29

That's the role of a consultant, right? Like that's the other thing that I'm really interested to test in this upcoming. onto the client side is I know that I'm a good consultant, right? Being a good consultant means that you are able to come in very quickly, assess and evaluate and make sense of a situation and bring outside perspective, but also outside energy, which I think is something that both you and I have in spades. And I know I'm a good consultant and I can come in and I can do that and then I get out which I, I do love because I have a short attention span sometimes and so it can be really fun to then move on to the next thing, but I'm excited to give it a try. Not that it's going to be such a long time that I'm in house, but it's a different, it's a different role and I'm really conscious of that. So I'm, I'm looking forward to giving it a go.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 36:14

As you were talking I was thinking when it comes to design and the craftsmanship and the artisanship and brand in general, a friend of mine who's an interior designer said to me the other day, she reminded me, I've obviously heard it before, you don't notice good design. You only notice bad design. And, and I think a lot of the very best work in this industry goes unnoticed because it's good. And and that's why I, I just, I, I feel very. excited to speak to people who've had a long term passion for something that can, is pretty intangible and can be fairly invisible sometimes. Anyhow, in the summer we spoke about How 2024 played out and I'm just curious to see how, you know, hear your reflections on the past year and what trends you noticed in terms of both creative and also just marketing more generally and how clients were behaving around that and how it compared to previous years.

37:09

Sure. I mean, for my business, I had a really strong first half of the year, then a sort of weak Q3, and then it started to pick up again in Q4, but I also have a lot of peers who had a really rough start to the year. So, I don't know that my experience necessarily reflects the broader industry. I also know that there were a lot of layoffs and there was this really fractious political environment here in the States. There were these existential questions about what's going on in our world. And is there going to be a recession? Is it not? It's okay. It's not a recession, but people are still feeling that prices are high and companies are cutting back. And so I think there was just a lot of grasping around. Nothing's felt like it's been on solid footing or that you could make longer term plans because things felt so up in the air. And that's just anecdotal and personal, but I'd say that was sort of what I observed. And, you know, I can talk till I'm blue in the face about. Well, you should, you know, you should always be focused on buttressing your brand because that's what stays steady when everything else is swirling. But if budgets aren't there, budgets aren't there. And so that's the, that's the tough reality of being in a service business.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 38:29

Certainly I saw, the words you're using to describe it, the grasping and the kind of uncertainty and. Unstable ground they're, they're definitely words that I would use to describe my experience interacting with potential clients last year, and it's interesting when you say it, I, I should have clocked it sooner, but the clients in the US were the ones who were talking about it first, so I, I feel like it's kind of, there is this kind of movement, not across, but it definitely, it was a thing there sooner but most of them have reported things picking up towards the back end of last year, so I'm really hoping You know, for better or worse, what happened yesterday means at least we are in a position where the next four years is, is somewhat determined now in terms of like what's going to be happening. It's not an election year anymore, right? So that's a thing.

39:18

I think that's right. I think for all the inevitable unpredictability of what's to come with this administration There is a sense of, okay, here we go. Like there we can see the road in front of us and we just got to figure out what we want to do on that road. I mean, I think there's a, there's a, a white paper percolating inside of me around the role of, of brand purpose in a second Trump presidency where DEI initiatives are being. Slashed and values and norms are being flouted on a, on a regular basis. I think there is an opportunity for, for leadership to come from places that maybe we haven't looked for leadership before, which feels strange to say that that's, that's the job for brands. But I think as a society, certainly as an American society, we need that leadership to come from somewhere. And so. I think there's a huge opportunity and there's some brands that have been doing some phenomenal leadership work in the States. I'm thinking of, for example, a, a formula brand called Bobbie that has, has really taken on advocacy roles in people's lives in addition to sending them tubs of formula to feed their kids. So I think it's going to be really, I think there's a huge opportunity there for brands to, to stand up. for something. And that's always my, my hope is that brands make use of that ability that they have to really galvanize people, to inspire people, to put their money where their mouth is on issues that matter to them.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 40:52

Yeah, absolutely. I think I saw that brand do a lot of work during the recent wildfires in terms of giving accessibility to formula milk. I mean, for me, brand. is how we choose brands to align with our values. We choose them based on who we think we are and how we want to show up in the world. And I think, I mean it really is a huge opportunity. If we are, if we can't trust in our leadership of a country to stand for what we represent, then we will look to other people. And I, yeah, I agree. I think you should let that white paper percolate, Laura. I can't wait to read it. I also have a picture of a stovetop coffee maker just like bubbling away. I just wanted to ask if you had any advice to future leaders and what do you think the next generation of agency and client leaders need to focus on to succeed in a rapidly changing industry world? And maybe you've just said it, or maybe you have something else to add.

41:46

I think the only other thing I'd add, I, I. I only very recently realized the strategic power of my network, and that seems very silly. I have a very strong network, facilitated hugely by the WPP fellowship and my time working across a lot of agencies, because you meet lots of people when you work lots of agencies. But I just always thought of these people as my friends, and oh, it's so and so, and we get drinks, or we get coffee, or we meet for lunch when I'm in town, or what have you, and that's great, and true, and it also is a strategic asset, and I think as we see more and more talent in our industry going independent, as a leader of an agency, just to bring it back to the conversation we had earlier, As you think about extending your capabilities, winning new types of clients, mentoring your junior folks in new ways to build their skill sets, having a network that you're managing strategically in order to tap into independent talent and bring them in to supplement the core of your business, I think is going to be really central. I think the days of big agencies running the show with full time employees. I think the, the landscape has shifted really to the point where that's not going to ever happen again. So managing your network strategically and bringing in talent for a lot of different strategic purposes, I think is going to be central for future agency leaders.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 43:11

It also feels like one of the benefits of getting older, your network is becoming more powerful and influential in terms of being decision makers. Right. So there's going to be some perks of getting older. That feels like one of them.

43:23

A hundred percent. And I'm very excited for my forties. Let's just put that out there. I think the forties are going to be great. I think that. Yeah. And you've seen it before, you know, that the world doesn't end. Right. I mean, there's just, there's maturity and perspective that comes with having done this before the world will not end. You will not get fired. Anything can be sorted. It's just, you know, these, these, these moments, these, you know, you, you put a foot wrong in a meeting or you drop a ball for a client and you think the world is going to end. And in reality, you're 25. The world will not end. The sun will come up tomorrow. You will have a job. I mean, maybe you'll get fired, but if you get fired, you'll get another job. It's going to be fine. And I think having that, that perspective and that longevity is, is really valuable. So yes, I fully agree.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 44:08

You

44:08

have given me the warm fuzzies

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 44:09

now. Everything's going to be okay. Laura said so. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Laura, and I know you've shared a couple of links and I will put those in the show notes. So anybody who wants to connect with you can do. Is there anybody who should specifically get in contact with you?

44:23

Sure. Always keen to chat with ambitious brand leaders, and I say ambitious, not as a throwaway line, but I really don't like just fiddling around the edges of things. I like to ask tough questions and grapple with potentially messy situations that need to be resolved and I think you can probably tell from this conversation, I don't pull punches. I'm very candid, but I'm also very optimistic and love getting my hands dirty. So anyone who is feeling really stuck on a thorny problem that has brand at the center of it I always love to have a chat.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 45:02

And yeah, just to, to sign off with, I think is the strap line of your company. So it's cider and is it strong, sharp, and sweet? Just like the real thing. Like the real thing. I love it. I

Laura Pearlstein Mills: 45:15

absolutely love it. Just, yeah. I mean, obviously then I'm talking about British cider because American cider doesn't have any booze in it. So doesn't it? Oh gosh. You've just saved

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 45:24

me ordering that on on a future holiday. Thank you.

Laura Pearlstein Mills: 45:27

Yeah, no. Ours is, I mean, your kids will like it, but British cider. I spent enough time in the UK to to have developed a taste for the real thing. So amazing. Well, thank you for joining us, Laura. Speak soon. My pleasure.

Charlotte Ellis Maldari: 45:39

Thank you. Bye.