Zayna Rose on Authentic Visibility for Business Growth

In this episode, Charlotte welcomes personal brand strategist Zayna Rose to explore the real work behind building authority and visibility. Zayna shares insights from over 20 years of helping founders and leaders develop a “profitable presence” through intentional authenticity and image intelligence. The conversation dives into the challenges of identifying your authentic self, the power of visual presence, and why authority is rooted in self-knowledge and consistency—not just surface-level makeovers.

Key topics include:
- The journey from makeover to deep personal branding
- How authenticity fuels effective marketing and authority
- The psychological and energetic impact of visual identity
- Navigating cross-cultural and nonverbal communication cues
- Overcoming self-limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome
- The importance of consistency and evolving your brand
- Practical strategies for media training, networking, and content pitching
- Choosing the right clients and finding joy in your work

A must-listen for anyone seeking to show up as a true authority—without feeling fake or forced.

https://www.zaynarose.com/
https://www.instagram.com/zaynarose/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zaynarose/
https://www.facebook.com/ZaynaRoseInc/

Transcript

Audio Only - All Participants: 0:33

hi, and welcome to the Caffeine Authority Builder podcast, and today I'm so happy to be joined by Zayna Rose, who is a personal brand strategist and communications consultant who helps founders, leaders, and aspiring leaders to confidently and strategically present themselves online and in person. She does that through customized programs and private consultations, and she advises on public image development, stage presence, communication style, and personal branding. So there's a lot of overlap in terms of, our positioning around the importance of authority in order to be the, front of mind in your space when your clients come in to choose, your services. So welcome, Zaina. Thank you so much for joining us. It's good to see you. You too. And we had a quick chat, a couple of weeks back or so, and, we had so many areas of common interest actually, the, all the different themes that we could talk about. We could, we could be here all day, but we're gonna try and make it as concise as possible in terms of the overlaps between our, our own clients. But do you wanna tell me, first of all, just a bit more about your own business? I know we, in the bio kind of walk through who it was, but how long have you been doing this? what is your pedigree and background? it's over 20 years now, so it's, it's always been this industry for me and obviously has evolved within, but I, my initial interest was to be a psychologist and, and just helping people is just helping people in a very close way and with their communication has always been, I guess a gift and an interest. And so I found out about the field. I am in short, right after, graduating university. So I, and it's one of those fields where you make it your own. So it really truly is, as many fields are an extension of your own passions. And, and I've always looked at things through the lens of public image development, meaning the most important thing is who we know ourselves to be and becoming who we want to be at every next step because we keep changing. And also how can we be strategic in order to make our path easier mm-hmm. More enjoyable. it's really helping people get what they want. Right. And which is what so many of us do from all of these different angles. So it's, there's a term I created called Profitable Presence, and it has two ingredients. The first is intentional authenticity, and the second is image intelligence. So image intelligence are the, the facts, the sales strategy, the psychology, the science behind the choices that we make, anything strategic that we're doing, but that needs to be met and matched equally, if not lesser, than what is coming from the inside and from the heart. And are we honoring ourselves? Are we being true to our. our state, our personality style, our communication style, who we are today and what we want and how we want to see ourselves, because that is the trickier part. You can give someone any kind of personal brand or, you know, style makeover or change body language or ask them to speak a different way, but if it's not in alignment with their natural way, you've lost the power. Oh, completely. This is a huge thing that we work on with our kind, I know key word that stuck out for me, there was authenticity because mm-hmm. It is okay to say be your authentic self, but for, for many of us, the authentic self isn't identifiable for many people who you know. Yeah. Or kind of earlier on in their personal growth journey, or maybe haven't done as much personal therapy, it can be very hard to understand who that actually is. I mean, especially as a, as a mother, I think that I see amongst my friends, that's something that's very hard for people to kind of recognize, who they are and how that's evolving through life, how that shows up at work, what their actual wants and needs are, not just in their personal life, but the direction in which they're going in their professional life as well. So a big part of this for me is is drawing attention to that and making it visible Yes. And then actually addressing it because that, that first bit's really hard. Well, and, and to, yeah, and to be a partner with your client or your colleague, in helping them to, as you say, identify what do you want? Because as you know, when you talk to someone, what are your goals? They have might have some. Specific career goals or personal goals or whatever. And what's really interesting is usually there's something going on on both sides, personal and professional. Mm-hmm. That can, the work can help both sides. Um, but sometimes, people just don't know what they want. And you have to be there with them in the trench of that exploration to help them understand what they want. And on a very, on a more shallow, practical level, we've all experienced something like that. For example, if you work with a new, web developer or something, and you have certain ideas about, you might even have a few samples or whatever, but in the end of the day you say, I just want it to be me and I just want it to look good. Mm-hmm. And I want people to get me. And that's the thing. It's, it's how do we use our voices on all these, all of these levels in concert. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think we probably chatted on the, um, the, our initial call about, uh, the recent rebrand that we went through at Caffeine. And, and it, honestly, going through that, those, that was my exact brief to the design agency was I want the, to feel like less of a disconnect between who I am, the experience of working with me and what the website looks like and who that appeals to. And what I didn't realize was just how much of an existential crisis that was gonna plunge me into. It's like going through their questions and their, their onboarding process. I'm in one, I'm in a mini one right now, only because, and I'll give you this quick example. I'll just changing your Instagram bio if you're trying to attract a certain. Type of client who has a certain, one of the several problems you solve, identified and, and then play nice with the algorithm and allow it to show you to people. you have to sometimes you have to change the description of what you do to be less than the scope of what you do. And then just being okay with that. yeah. And yesterday we started an experiment on mine to put media training front and forward, even though that's one of a few major things that we, that I solve. But it's, it, it, it, you have to use all of the other items you have to have. Yeah, absolutely. You have to have good personal branding. You have to find your communication, find your voice, be yourself, look good, have a strategy, you know, so it's, it's. And that even though we work in this field, that can bother, it's very natural. Hmm. Yeah. And maybe that won't, that experiment might not be the right, you know, but it makes a lot of sense to do. Yeah, absolutely. And I, I, as you're talking, I'm just thinking, well, two thoughts came to mind before when you were talking about authenticity is for me, how this shows up with my clients is if they're not being authentic, if they're not being themselves, then they really struggle to do anything around marketing and new business because it doesn't feel right. It feels icky. It doesn't, it is not them. Right. they, and you know, my friends in their professional careers who are getting coaching at this point, when they, are being interrogated about what their goals are, they, they are then challenged by their, their own coaches and are these actually your goals or are these just Is this something somebody else has spouted out? Is this something that your peers are talking about? And so you've just borrowed these goals. Are these actually yours? You know, so that's how it might show up if you're not a business owner, but if you're a professional person. And then, I just had a really interesting call with somebody earlier who's actually a pathologist. but she also coaches people on effectively living before they die. And she said, it's really interesting, there are two types of people who approach retirement. There are those who, are really, excited about it and they've got, they, they plan to start living when they retire. And she said, you know, a significant proportion of those people die fairly soon after retirement because they've been waiting to live and then find it a bit of a disappointment, you know, not to general Well, because they've forwarded somebody else's bucket list of what they wanna do after retire. You're so right, because pur purpose is a leading indicator of that satisfaction post retirement. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and she identifies that the people who understand themselves more authentically, many of those don't want to retire, or they're already doing what would be their retirement bucket list while they're living, like while they're working. Yeah. While they're in their professional lives. And as a result, are getting more out of life and, and rate higher on a happiness index for a longer period of time and, and live for longer. so it's fascinating. I think it shows up regardless of whether you're. A, a business owner or an employee, or just a human. And if you're listening to this, unless you're somebody's dog, then you most certainly are a human. So, just, and you're also welcome to this. Yes. You're so welcome. I'm not gonna try and speak your language. so can you tell me more about what tends to bring,'cause on the, oh, sorry. To build a podcast, we're talking about kind of how you end up working with clients and their, and how you nurture them through that process. So what tends to bring clients through your door? Is it usually, you just mentioned about media training and, and trialing putting that front and center on the, on your Instagram buy-in. I'm really curious around, around that in, in very specific circumstances. But is it usually visual identity? Is it media training as you mentioned, or is it something else? What do you think is that prompt? what I would say the theme is, is that there's some kind of turning point going on or some kind of. Revelation big or small. So what often happens is there's a situation for which the person feels. Unprepared or less confident than they'd like to be. Yeah. what have you. And then sometimes they come to it, or sometimes someone around them makes a suggestion because this type of consulting, this type of help is not, I would say, run of the mill. It's not off the top of your head. Oh, I, it, there's so much more awareness now than there was. Of course. but the two things that you hit on, the two things that typically bring people through the door the most is, well, they need to be more visible is the, is the thing really? Or they need to speak more. On behalf of their company. If they're an exec or their business, it could be someone who's now going public and is used to sitting behind the scenes. or it could be someone who's actually quite comfortable going out and talking, but now they have to take it to the next level. And the practical problem that, that some of the practical problems associated with that. So yes, media training, in a way that's not that you don't sound media trained, because that's the entire point. Yeah. It's to help you prepare, not to give you, a filter through which to talk or, anything like that. It's to give you a system and then the other thing is people turn up and they put their hand up for a makeover. Yeah. And that is very, it's very fascinating to me that some of my best clients over all of the years came. To for the makeover. Mm. And stayed for many other things. Yeah. And, and some of those people came. So one of my favorite clients came, got divorced, thought they were not, well, turns out they were, well, it was just a temporary health problem, but lost 30 pounds also. and then was, but was highly intelligent fit, very capable and thought, oh, thought of it on a very practical level. I'm gonna get someone to help me sort out, sort this part out'cause I'm not great at that and I'm busy. And then, in initial conversations it became clear that it was going to evolve past that. And I ended up helping the whole leadership team with presence and communication. So it is, and actually I. I approach things differently than a typical stylist. And I say that because the, the framework that I use is, is different. So it's just not, what people would expect if they're looking for a classic stylist. Right. Yeah. but it's so immensely satisfying actually. And, and who, I don't know if you liked the makeover montages and ro romcoms as a kid or anything, but I did. And there's something about that transformation that we can see. It's a chance to look in the mirror and see ourselves in a different way that is actually very healthy and supports the state that we're going for. And you can pre-create that. Like you can nudge yourself mm-hmm. Into the next state. Yes. I'm a strong believer in that. That's, that's how I, my day to day. Yes. And, and absolute and in terms of those romcoms, Cher's wardrobe and Clueless is still held on a pedestal to me. I rewatched, I saw that recently. They showed it last summer here in the park in Toronto and they were really ahead of this she of their time. She basically had an app with her wardrobe in it. It was incredible. Yeah. Yeah. It was so visionary. Absolutely. But people when you put help people with what goes on their body that feels better than what they've had. It does. You'll see often on the same day, in the same half day, a shift in body language. Yeah. And the way you walk taller and feel proud when you walk down the street. And that is not to be underestimated. and even if we are very good at knowing what to do in that regard, we can feel the difference depending on how we present ourselves. the it's, every day is not to be looked at. I, I am also have my favorite things that were probably embarrassing to be wearing in public, but are so cozy inside your h and, and, and a good, personal image does not mean dressing up. Also, it's, it's finding the right things for you and color gets often overlooked and there's psychological and physical, energetic power to color. So yeah, absolutely. Lots of interesting pieces. So, I, I see, I can see how, and I don't believe this at all, it's very strong proponent of this. And actually I did a, a fashion and marketing degree at university, so I feel quite, I feel quite strongly about the, yeah, the, the power of wearing the right outfit. But, I think a lot of people underestimate the visual presence. The role of that in the perception of authority and credibility. so can you talk about how, what does that look like for people who are already really experienced in their fields? Who, I mean, I, the, the client you just mentioned, I just, I just feel like there are lots of people absolutely kicking ass where there are incremental gains to be made by choice of how you appear and, and not just how that is perceived by other people, but also how it makes you feel and how it elevates you to another level in terms of your energy and, and the presence you bring. Yes. You speak of it so well and so accurately. It's choosing, the self presentation really for what you have to go and do. And the reason that our, you know, call it wardrobe grooming, makeup, if you wear it, if you care for it, accessories, things like that, they do tell. they tell a story. We tell a story to ourselves with it. We support with it what we want to achieve, and, and people cannot help, take that into account. And so there's, there's what you're doing for yourself, and I call it casual power looks, because that's you know what your power suit could be, jeans and a t-shirt. It has to be the right shape and color and fabric, and you have to be comfortable in it. Yeah. and you know, if you're sitting in the middle of Silicon Valley, that's a helpful or somewhere else, frankly. Or it might be an actual suit, but it is first for us. And, and anyone I, I'm, I've never had anyone disa like not notice this, that you'd feel a little more comfortable in certain colors, let's say. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And so that's a huge, we, we won't go far down that rabbit hole right now, but, but that's, that's a really incredible place to start. But it's, it's all of the details and how, what are we doing for ourselves to put ourselves in the best position? and then, you know, so it's okay, there's some weather factors. There's, there's always, you know, how do you feel in that moment, in that day, but also, what do you have to go and do? Are you going to a negotiation? Are you going to a sales call? Are you going to a conference or a networking event? Are you doing anything of consequence? And you make adjustments. If you have a little personalized system, you just make a small adjustments in direction based on what you have to do. So, you know, if you are going to a negotiation, even a very friendly one, even if it's online, how do you want to put that energy forward and keep your, I don't know. Just keep your presence intact at the level at which you want it. Yes. Yeah. How you appear. Not diminish from being Exactly. And then there's that in that moment. Yeah. And visual credibility means that people can pay attention to you in your face and what you're saying, which is what we want. Absolutely. We don't actually want anyone distracted by what we've got going on in our backgrounds if we're on camera or what's on our bodies. And, and every time I start questioning, oh, does that actually matter? Like, you'll be sitting in an audience somewhere and two people behind you who will be chatting about the, what is that person where they're, because they're distracted by it, it's not that they actually really care. Mm. Yeah. So, so we just wanna keep that, vis the harmony versus distraction. Yes. Harmony. Yeah. It's not about. Making your outfit or your look. Shout beyond you. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's about complimenting. and I'm just thinking as you're talking, there are so many kind of cultural, and especially if you're working with really high powered women and people like I know you do Zaina, mm-hmm. There's also cross-cultural challenges around how you appear as well. Like I remember being, I was a teacher in South Korea for a while and I remember marking a kid's work with a red pen and then saying, well done X their name, in the red pen at the bottom and like a smiley face. And they came up to me crying. They were only about six. And they were like, teacher, why do you want me to die? And I was like, what are you talking about? And he said, you write my name in red Ink. It means you want me to die in Korea. I was like, oh my goodness. I really like, I need to go read up all of this stuff before I offend anybody else. But I think is, it is really important you are in those kind of positions of power, is understanding if you are working internationally, what. What about your, because I mean, we've kind of spoken about it a little bit here, but just to kind of call out out loud, like the non-verbal cues are a huge part of how we communicate. So you talk about media training, I mean the, the nonverbal stuff is not just the nice to have, it's the biggest part of communication in many ways. Yeah. Just like you said, you know, the people in the audience chatting about what somebody's looking like rather than what they're, what they're saying. Yeah. We don't want that. That's not the go. Yeah. And it's, it's, So a lot of it is management of our own energy and how we're projecting it. Yeah. Because that comes through our facial expressions, it comes through our posture. some performers and speakers or any kind of presenter, they, their ener, they can throw their energy to the back of the room, either intentionally or unintentionally just because of the way that they show up. Mm-hmm. and that's a good thing because we're, if you're in that room virtually or in person, that's what you're there to, might not be so dramatic as you're there to affect change, but you're there to for a reason for yourself. Yeah, absolutely. And often to accomplish something and, and influence in the hands of a, of a well-intentioned person is a good thing. absolutely. And, and self-expression should not be the, the value of being not only cool with our own self-expression, but. Having it as a tool of growth and healing as well as outward. Let's get some things done. That's, that's a very important thing too. So we're, it's like always experimenting and checking in to see if we're doing what's right for ourselves. And, and you're right, the physical component is, even if you don't move much or can't, it's, it's that energy that we can feel. Are, you have described your clients as being quiet visionaries. I'm curious what holds'em back from being more visible in your experience? And you know what? Oh no. Sorry. Go ahead. No, go for it. no, it was that. I heard you say that and I thought that I don't, I haven't. come up with that term. I said that's your term. Oh, was it? Okay. Yeah, I heard you say that and we were talking about it and I said that so describes them actually. Yeah. So we, we have that in common. what, what in, in your clients that you see? I mean, it is definitely not capability. It's not, yeah. Experience. When you're thinking about the professional people that you work with, is there anything else that you feel like,'cause you, you've described, we've talked, you know, quite a bit here about people often come in for the makeover, but they don't, you know, it goes way beyond that. So they come in for that thing. What is it that you normally end up addressing after you've addressed the visual appearance? Do you feel like there's something else that is holding them back from, from showing Yeah. self-limiting beliefs, energy. Well, all of that stuff. what does it tend to be? And I'm, I think I'm right in saying you predominantly work with professional women, right? Uh, women all genders. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And actually there are, there have been many moments where there have been more men. Okay. as well. So, and, and all ages, all, I started at 22, but even at 22 I was just in there with different types of people. Right. And, within person clients here in Canada we're so lucky to have multicultural. A, a multicultural country. So I, I've, you know, and obviously virtual clients all around the world. So it, interesting. Could be if that, if one of those practical things, it's, those discussions are always happening from, from the get go with me because I need to know the person mm-hmm. And want to know the person in order to best help them, whether it is something simple or not, but it's, it, that's where they launch into more of the personal branding elements. So there are also all of our, the digital assets to take care of. And are we making first impressions on their, are they making first impressions on, on all fronts, on all platforms, on all occasions? Do they have, yeah. Do they have, some type of get ready system, whether they're traveling for business or, or getting on a podcast like this. what is their speaking style about and, and are they able to. well convey what they need to in order to either attract clients or fulfill their role. And so it, it becomes a deep dive into the different areas really, of, of communication and how to project leadership presence in a profitable way. Yeah. And, and when I speak about profitable presence, I'm what you're, what I'm after really is on behalf of that person is yes. actual dollar ROI or pound ROI like, yeah, come in from that. But it's also, there's a currency and relationships and connections and people now coming to you to offer you the opportunities you'd actually really like to have. And, and just thinking of those. People and just kind of mindful that this is the Authority Builder podcast, like what are, what are some of the ways that you help people to show up, without feeling fake or forced or outta character and, and show up as the authority in their field? Yeah. What, it's so critical not to just follow a cookie cutter set of instructions or, I think someone's, first of all, someone's research is good if someone's going to chat to, to ask or different places to ask, that's, that's all. Getting them to a certain place. but to, to help a person find and then get into their natural communication style on different fronts, and it's how, how will that person feel at their best? So it, sometimes it's, for example, with media training, sometimes it's me. And, and, and do I also use my intuition along with. Hard skills. Yes. So I'll watch someone, let's say someone's footage on a TV interview or a podcast, anything like that. Or even you can even tell a lot by voice about what's going on. Just with the voice. Yeah. And it's, it's giving them practical things to be more comfortable, better heard, more effective, and also asking very important questions that have popped up that I wanna see if there's something we need to work on there. So there is an element of this, triaging. Yes. It's, it's so, so that with, you know, with, and, and we, we find out by doing, as we all know, right? Yeah. So testing certain things. Yeah. But there's also so much, there's also this practical element of it. So going through things with, with people and giving them their three. Authentic soundbites, which kind of sounds like an oxymoron, but, but that's the art of it. Right? Or preparing them to, to even pre-interview with a particular type of producer who will do things a certain way and just kind of clearing their path and making that easier or, or rehearsing them, in different ways. So, yeah, and, and I, it's, it's so fascinating because I, I had, this long term client and I was media training people from all over the world at different levels. And some of them were really well known. Some of them were not well known. All very, all equally impressive, right. And for some, they really got into this, I called it rehearsal for those who are, especially those who are very seasoned because. You know, no one wants to be media trained. Yeah. So you don't have to call it that. You can just call it preparation or rehearsal. but people at every level, there was something that they actually did work on, and those people were, some of them were going out to media interviews, but a lot of them were filming content and with, with some of the world's best producers. So you want, you need to be prepared because then you've got this whole crew and, and all that stuff. But the same principles apply no matter the stage. I have one client on another note who we're working on. She's had her makeover. We're working on, we've worked on her podcast systems and, we're preparing her to go out into the media more in terms of being a, a featured guest expert or being interviewed by different publications. And something else that we're working on with her is. She would like to feel better while she's out networking. She represents herself and her company at different, and in terms of demographics, she's a fish out of water in rooms of mostly men, and she's comfortable with that idea, but it's the culture that comes with it. In this particular industry, it's, it's so fascinating. So, and, and she's been more of a behind the scenes person than now is out on the road more so we're, we have specific conversations of things she can approach people with and say, and we do little debriefs. How did that event go? How was that connection? So finding, helping people find their connection style. Sometimes people need to be encouraged to let their humor out a little bit or relax a little bit. It's okay. And they have very good reasons for their hesitations. Yeah. People have, might have things around visibility or things around connection that make them, Rightly concerned and maybe over analytical. And, and that's something that once you work through it, can it come back? Sure. But it comes back in a different way. Mm. And make progress. So, so that has, you have to be in good hands and, and you have to have good care around those very important and often sensitive personal topics that go along with all of this work of associated with personal branding or public image development. Yes. So, such a vulnerable area. And I imagine the trust and the depth of that, the bond within that relationship is super important to the impact of your work. And I just, I like this. I'm just thinking of. Our authority builder, clients that we work within in that particular container, they often, people who are business owners or, leaders are impatient. They want stuff done, they want things efficiently. look, I relate to all of those things, but as you're talking, I'm just reminded again of just how much of an evolution this is. you're talking about when you were working with the, I dunno if it was a network or, a, a big group of, like people who work around media, some very seasoned, some less. So there's always more work to be done and to revisit, and I think this is because you, you are understanding of who you are is always evolving, it's always getting deeper if you're examining it. So it's not like the work ever really ends. It's that you can then, as you're getting deeper into your understanding of that you can show up more authentically, more consistently, for me is the really key word. Because if you're not consistent and willing to go back thinking about your client who is, mainly, typically one of the few women in a room full of men in her particular sector. And they're kind of understandable, even if it's slight friction, that that might create in terms of her an actually wanting to be in those rooms and do that. Networking, I mean, who actually wants to network at the best of times, right? I, I'm a chatter, but those kind of events make me feel a little bit queasy sometimes. but the thing is, if we don't do it consistently and if we don't show up as ourselves, we won't do it consistently.'cause we'll avoid it. If we don't do it consistently, it's not gonna have the impact. But if we don't it consistently and badly and or not as ourselves mm-hmm then it's gonna have an unintended effect. And I think these things go hand in hand and they're just super important to be doubling down on and understanding that the work. back to the original kind of opening of, of my statement here and my monologue as my computer is telling me. But yeah, the, this kind of, I love a monologue. Yeah, I know my computer very, I love a late night monologue. Charlotte, get off your soapbox, Charlotte. but this kind of idea of, being an, IM an impatient and person who wants to get things done. I think there's a, there's a moment where you realize, oh, it's not a destination, it's a journey. And I know that sounds really philosophical, but I think'cause so much of this is tied up with it's self, you, I think what you get your head around that and understand there's always progress to be made. There's always evolutions to be made. There's always work to do. And that's a good thing. And it will only have returns if you do bother to work on it and take the discipline to do that. Do you wanna hear you're, you're in, you're exactly right. again, on multiple levels it's happening. Do I The thought of something that I think is funny. While you were talking is that some of the most, there are these very powerful people sometimes that come in for, I, I've heard this feedback consistently and I just, I find it surprising and I don't know why, but they get a huge kick out of the compliments they get. that gets reported into me by them. And I always think that that's we, we're not above it. No, we don't, we don't ever get above being complimented on whatever it is speaking style, their outfit, when they got off the point, whatever it is, they, they love that recognition. Yeah. That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Yeah.'cause I think that some of the most ambitious driven, self-starting people are actually secret or not so secret people pleasers and anything that comes. Across as peer approval or compliments or it's a confirmation bias and they, they lean into it and they want more of it, and it's really addictive. And I put myself in that category, it's a Yeah. I get, I'm sure I had to it's, it's so interesting. Yeah. I had someone tell me that they found themselves in a room of some of the top business people out there that person felt comfortable. And that to me was like, okay, we accomplished the mission. Absolutely. They were comfortable. They felt like they, they fit in. They were, they command, they were able to command the room in their own way. Yeah. That's the thing, like when we, when we find that, zone within ourselves, you kind of get to feel uns unstoppable and that there's so much going on in life and the world and that. It's a piece of something that we need to hold onto and, and to feel capable and mm-hmm. like you could, so when the thing is with first impressions, here's what it is. We want to aim to intrigue people. Be yourself and in aim to intrigue people. Because what happens then, if they're the right people for you, they'll take the next step to connect, possibly buy from you, possibly give you a job, possibly. and there's like a funny side effect that have, I, I mentioned that the personal comes with it. I've had multiple people who just, they were like, they're, I'm getting so many dates. What's going on? Like, they were almost, they're like, what's happening? And I said, well, you magnetic. Yeah. It's just, I didn't, I had someone call, what did you do? Like, I didn't do anything. Just you, we went, we did some stuff and you're feeling good and and they're coming. It shows, I dunno. Yeah, it shows, it shows. yeah, it's, I remember, when you're like, well I dunno if you relate to this, but when I was like 14 and, mid adolescence and all the changes that come with that and, wanting to be attractive to the people that I was attracted to. And I remember, the, the thing that the grownups always spouted out is there's nothing more attractive than confidence or there's nothing more attractive than being yourself. And I'd be like, oh yeah, no, go pull the other one. Being attractive is an outfit from here that costs X number of pounds and it's having your eyebrows in the shape and it's like, dyeing your hair this color. I was like, no. I can give you a price list on what attractive looks like to the men I'm interested in at age 14. and then it's only as you get older, and I mean, for me, kind of, I think, post 40 actually, and an understanding the, and actually it, a lot of it comes from having less energy and giving fewer shits. Yeah. Yeah. And therefore, being, there's something, there's something that really is magnetic about confidence and ambition and knowing yourself, I think more than anything else, knowing yourself. yeah, because the more you know yourself, the, the, the less you're trying to replicate other people, the more authentic you likely to be. And, and I do think that authenticity is magnetic. I do see the impact of that. It's so fascinating. It's, it's an identity issue. It's a comfort in our own skin thing. Yeah. and that's what I want for people. And are we, I I don't know anyone who's not on that journey in some way because we age and grow and we, life keeps changing and circumstances change and it's like a part of, it's just a part of living really. Yeah. And, and trying to re if you can reduce the stress and the question marks around it, you can be a lot more comfortable. Which is, which is nice that there are some solutions. It's just not one of the regular things on a list of, on your business plan. Or it should be. No, it isn't. No, absolutely not. And, and something else just struck me as you were talking then. One of my all time favorite books is a nonfiction book that I first read nearly 20 years ago called The Paradox of Choice. I can't remember the name of the guy who wrote. Oh, interesting. I should read it. it's so good and it's, I reread it every few years and something always happens afterwards. But basically the concept, I mean, it was kind of pre Daniel Kaman, system one, system two. Mm-hmm. Kind of thinking fast and slow stuff. Yeah. But the concept being that we, when we decide on the things, and for me it's the nail color, big apple, red by OPI, because then I don't have to think about it when I go into the nail salon. So that could be one example, but where you make a decision about what is just the thing that you do in that scenario, whether it's a huge thing or it's choosing your nail color and you're like, these are the things that. I can't, there's no, massive benefit from thinking longer and harder about this or thinking, make, making decisions around choice. And just as you're talking, I was thinking in many ways you're removing the, the choices that your clients have to make when they show up in a room because you're telling them, you are working with them, you're not dictating to them on Yeah. What they wear or what they say, or how they behave and show up in certain circumstances. So they can get on with just being and Exactly. Because they can get to know which are, they'll still have choices, but all of their choices that they've now, let's call it re-identified, are working work for them. Yeah. So there's not a wrong move. And then you, you make your choices based on logistics. Mm-hmm. And then sometimes things like last minute things come up and you want the little strategic viewpoint. And of course, let's, let's get that too as well. Yeah. but, but it is about. some of it's about research. If you're sending someone into an interview with a particular type of host, let's say, and you need to brief them on that person's communication style and so there, in different scenarios, there are different things, but the goal is for people to be good on their own Yeah. to just get on with it and be in the moment, and, and know their own specifications, their own personal image architecture or their own, how, how to make them their bodies comfortable and work with them well. And yeah. All that stuff. sometimes, when I do photo shoots with people, I figure out what it is that kind of puts them in their right zone. So I've had, I, I said somewhere recently that I will, I did it today. I sang a show tune to warm up my voice and get in a, while I was getting ready. Some people need, I had one client who needs to do particular, doing a few martial arts or moves on the side is what works for that person or doing a couple of pushups or for that person or, yeah, quietly medicine. I've sent some people to quietly meditate in a corner for five minutes before. Yeah. For me it's dancing. I think it's, yeah, it's often a somatic thing, right? It's often about getting your body doing something. Yeah. I, sorry, I interrupted. I just went back to my Broadway dance teacher. Actually I do private Broadway dance lessons now. Oh really? Amazing. Yeah. And that, that's, that one's for my soul, but also it's good for your stage presence. You know, there's so many things that it's good for your body, it's good for you, but it's, it's, that's just something that I'm so passionate about and have always wanted and it wasn't available. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I found a way to make it available. I don't know, but I, I'll see Broadway shows and then come back to Steve and say, I would like to learn this number please for Steve. last said, do you tap? And I said, I, I showed him a buddy tap number and he go, I said, no, but I can do it. And he went on, he didn't know me yet, and he, in his mind, he was oh my God, what am I doing? And I go, it's fine. I'll get tapped shoes, we'll be fine. And guess what? I could do it. Well done. You, and I'm not a dancer per se. I'm a, you know, recreational. I dunno. Oh yeah. I mean, yeah. I'm an untrained dancer. Could never be described as professional. But the, but the point is you look at it makes me happy. Yeah. The point is you look at something and you go, I can do that. Yeah. Do I need some help to do that? Yes. But I can do that. so you, you get to just believe in yourself and be very, ambitious with yourself about who you can be. Yeah. I don't want to promote people getting overwhelmed with adding a million things to their to-do list and be too ambitious about what you can do in a certain amount of time. That's all individual. But, but to, to push yourself a little bit about who you can be in the direction, who do you want to be? Yeah. See, and then realize your potential if you continue on that path. Yeah. I mean, potential is a huge thing for me. So that's, yeah. Fascinating. So, so tell me, like in terms of your, just thinking back to your business in terms of your visibility strategy, what's working, what, what are you testing? what are you, what are you doing right now to Yeah. Help clients find you? I am most focused on, I've done a lot of things in the last few years. Some work, some didn't. My favorite is to do this. I like to come to talk to people on their shows. I've got a new show, excuse me, a new podcast in development as well, so I hope you'll come there. But, but speaking in this particular way, I decided no more showing up on people's summits and I'm kind of, for now, finished with that kind of thing. Yeah. But, for me, podcasts, working on some television stuff that's for later. I and writing, so I started, you know, pitching to, to be a contributor, to be a writer. And I was able to get one great thing and I've got some other things in the works, but, but that's. I feel so excited about that. And there's so much value in that. And then of course, so I'm, I've, now, I've finally decided to be consistent on social media. I finally decided I could keep that commitment. You were talking about consistency earlier. That has not been easy for me. No, no. That's not somewhere I'm consistent. No. Like we spend so much time doing the work and other things, but, but I am, when you say experiment, I'm experimenting with different messaging and, and checking to see, and even I, I will say through writing media pitches, because you'll get, sometimes you don't get feedback from editors or producers, but sometimes you do. And sometimes you get booked and sometimes you don't. But there has, you know, just that craft helps you tighten up your marketing messages. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because you need some kind of, a news peg, like something to hook it to, to make it relevant. And then you need your own hook. Like, why does this matter? Why is this interesting? And what do we hook it to that's happening out in the world somewhere in some, yeah. Whatever your realm is. but it's really, it's been, it's been like building muscle in that, in that zone for, for the place we're all in now. I, I in, in this role at caffeine, but also in previous roles, have been a effectively a ghost writer of thought leadership pieces for big, business and, vertical trade and national media articles, like, what's the word? Uh, not, gosh, byline, I forget the word. when somebody writes it themself and they're like a contributing editor. Yeah. You're byline. Yeah. I dunno why that word went completely outta my head then. haven't had enough coffee clearly, but I, it is so interesting. I loved writing. I hated, and, and I could see those connections. I could see the, the timely kind of reason, the, the hook back to why it was relevant for us. Like, I'd be pitching for stuff. We, we would sometimes be approached the more I did it, but I was pitching for a lot of this stuff on behalf of our CEO and, and then actually drafting things. the thing I found the most difficult about that was the pitching. I found it, it was a lot of effort for not necessarily a lot of return. And the more you do it, again, back to consistency, the more well known you are for being. And there's like one level of well known, which is, they want you to contribute because you are. Got something interesting to add. Maybe you're controversial. Maybe you all of the, people actually read it, they can see the clicks,'cause everything now is clickable and not, not turning pages above. But, there was another level as well, which was being the person who turned it around really fast, who suggested things proactively, who didn't make that journalist life difficult or that editor's life difficult. but to reference back to tap dance, it did feel like a tap dance. Yeah.'cause it feels like you, you are having to be fast. You're having to think on the spot you are having to things. On spec with no idea. Often even write a whole article on spec with no idea if it was actually gonna be published or not. Often there was exclusivity around these things. Often there it was an expiry date on these things. So if you gave somebody exclusivity and they didn't use it and then you wanted to take it somewhere else, a week later, it wasn't relevant any longer because the time, and it was just, for a long time, it wasn't the only thing in my remit, but for a long time it was about 90% of my job doing that. And it, that's not to say it wasn't successful. It was extremely successful. And like I said, the more consistent you were, the more people appreciated that and started coming back to us directly rather than us pitching. but can you talk to me about your experience with that and why? Like why are you willing to kind of work through it? What was the return? No, it's, it's an excellent question because I agree with everything you just said and I have experienced everything you just said. And so the. This is e this is an energizing thing for me. I just love it so much. But here's, here are two things. So two things that really help. I've been working on it for quite a while and now I've, it's sort of been in development and now I'm pitching faster. But one thing is where can we make inroads with the relationship aspect of it? Because journalists are so busy. Editors are so busy, producers, what have you. If you can get, you know, introductions, heard of you from, it's like certain things in the subject line or who will introduce you or whatever. and, and I have a, one of my publicity advisors, Mercedes, Barbara is her name and she's incredible and has her network. And I, and she's one of my media coaches. So I have lots of different kinds of coaches, but that's one area that I'm being coached and helped. Even though I am good on camera and will show up and do a good job, just getting there is the tricky part. Yeah. and the other thing too is having a plan for all that content that, so it doesn't get totally wasted. So some things are particularly newsworthy in a moment and next week aren't relevant as you said. Yeah. And other things don't go, they, you pitch'em and no one's wanting them, but to take that and turn it into your own content. So either Yeah, some kind of, yeah, some kind of episode or some, or post it on social or in your website or everywhere, your LinkedIn, just take those good ideas and use them though, because you've probably then got, I've got a, I've probably got two years worth of things based on things I didn't pitch or things that didn't get answered or whatever. To use your brilliance. Yeah. in some other way. and there is a level of resilience and patience needed in the media world because it is so, it's not personal. It's the rejection isn't personal, it really isn't. And, that doesn't take away the frustration. Yeah. but it is something if one embarks on that, and of course I actually think the fastest way to clients is just really good networking, asking, being, going to people you can talk to about certain things and saying, Hey, I'm actually looking to fill a few spots for next season or this season, whatever. Is there anyone you can think of that I should connect with? Or anyone who so there is the asking, but also just going out to, to, well chosen events. So I. My con for the past 10 years, aside from pandemic, I went to so many conferences and I was in virtual conferences during that, but I've made so many friends and contacts just from going to, and these were in particular, were some marketing and tech conferences. Mm-hmm. and some of my best clients, for example, are tech founders that came through networking. so just kind of the old fashioned networking and, but just worrying about only just connecting on a personal level at first Yeah. Is really how some of the best people will come in, which really brings us 360, right. Because Yeah. This, you know, you, you, this is what you train on that, you know, thinking back to your female client in a mainly male world, Yeah. Having the. Willingness as well as the confidence to show up in those rooms and, and do the necessary networking. For a lot of people, regardless of whether they feel like the black sheep in their industry, is a very difficult thing to do. I mean, I'm speaking to you from London in the uk, like British people. Oh my goodness. You can feel the awkwardness in a networking room here in Britain. Like you can literally cut it in a, with a knife, like there is, and, and a lot of that, I mean, bring, to me, it just brings us back 360 back to the authenticity and, and knowledge about who you are and what value you have to people and just feeling comfortable showing up and having the chats and not being, not taking yourself too seriously, not being too worried because then your best stuff will, will shine through and you will be more human and make better connections. I wanted to ask you because there's just something before we finish off, and a mindful of time, wanna be respectful of yours that you've. It is kind of about not so great clients. Because I know when we originally spoke you, you know, you've worked with some incredibly, successful people, eight figure founders, but you've chosen to work and focus on a different kind of client now, predominantly right now. Yeah. Mm-hmm. what help you to make that decision and, and are there any red flags that you realize now earlier on in the, the sales or the chemistry process with new clients that flags to you? Yeah. Whether that they're a good fit, it's, yeah, that's a great question. and I've always like to maintain the balance. I help aspiring leaders who are starting out and also people very established. And what I have found is, for me right now, it's a fit of what I feel more. Excited about, aligned with, however you wanna call it. So with I, so the reason I've chosen this sweet spot of people with maybe they're on their own or maybe they have small to medium teams, is that those people still, in my experience have the time to give me, because the work I do, I need them to have time to be with me. Yeah. Either virtually or in person. And they're also still excited about, basically their teams have not taken over the entirety of their. Operations and, and all of that. So what happens sometimes with, super high level founders in terms of the size of the income of the company, though there will be very large teams, and rightfully so, they have their time delegated in certain ways, and there can be a lot of red tape that comes to you that is, outside of the knowledge of the client, and you get into a situation where it's not always appropriate. Like it just, it became, it became a little bit fussy for me. Hmm. And I just loved the quick yeses and the quick action taking of this other type of business owner. Yeah. And again, it could be, it doesn't have to be business owner, but, but a lot of the time they are, where they're, there's something that's they're excited about that they want to accomplish, whether it's get out there more and do this, or, oh, we're working on this in secret, but we need this help, whatever it is they have found. you know, if you offer them a solution that has a measurable goal that's maybe a three month situation, it feels like an easy yes to them. And they're willing to, it is a type of risk. I mean, they don't know me, they haven't done this type of work before, so there's, I have found a sweet spot of people who are just. Incredible to also help and be with. Yeah. And there's not a lot of external pressure, like we're able to keep that container intact. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so it sounds like, I don't know how clear that was, but No, no, absolutely. It sounds like the right energy fit, and it's really interesting. I was thinking it's more fun. It's, it's just, let's just get into it and do the work and Yeah. yeah, and it's not that those people have tons of spare time, but they're able to carve out this temporary time at least. Yeah. There's, there's something, I think there's, there's a parallel with a lot of my clients where they, a lot of it is around acknowledging what is enjoyable for the business and what is profitable, because it's not necessarily the biggest account, the biggest clients in terms of revenue that are the most profitable because they end up being a time and energy suck because of, their perceived. Importance and the amount of energy you need to put to maintain and, and address that. But also the, I dunno, it is hard to explain. I just think there's often, when clients go back and look at the profitability of different clients, it's not necessarily the clients that they think are Yeah. That they, they thought it was gonna be. What felt the most fun to work on. Yeah. And, and I think going through that exercise and doing an audit, whether it's a formal one or just in your head, what's your gut feel? yeah. And then a quick look over the accountancy software to see yeah, I think it's so important because that can massively change how enthused you feel about your business as well, right? Yeah. What's your, leaning into the kind of client and finding more of those people that you actually really enjoy working with, and you can see the impact that you can have in a relatively short period of time. it's not, it's not necessarily, I know people say it's not about the money, and it is when you're in business, but it's, well, we need, we have to bring in the income and, and, and also it's nice if we can lower our stress around the situation, So Yeah, absolutely. You'll, you'll start to see patterns of, oh yeah, okay, well, I'm not sorry I took that gig and here's what I won't, here's what I'll ask that I didn't ever think I had to ask before. yeah. You learned, oh, I, I have to add that question. Okay. Because I, you know, you connect with people and you get a sense, and you can trust your gut most of the time and, and all of that. But things will arise that, again, are not personal. And you, you'll think like, oh, okay. I better, yeah, that's, add that one to the, just in case I just have to ask you this list. I'm so sorry, but I have to ask you this. No, it's, absolutely. I'm glad you got there. That's, That's important as a business owner. Well, look, I mean, we, we've been talking quite a while now and thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, za. Thank you. I really enjoyed it. the continuation of our chat, which started a few weeks ago and I hope it's not the last time we have hope, an opportunity. Hope this has been great. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. And yeah, speak soon. Bye. Thanks.