Building Authority Through Offer Strategy with Ceels Lockley

In this episode, Charlotte welcomes offer strategy coach Ceels Lockley to discuss the realities of agency life, imposter syndrome, and building offers that truly align with your expertise and values. Ceels shares her journey from agency leadership to mentoring female service providers, highlighting the challenges of pivoting careers, especially after starting a family.

Key topics include:
- The addictive nature of agency work and the turning points that lead to change
- How imposter syndrome manifests for creative service providers, especially around pricing and offers
- The “four seasons” of business and how to navigate the inevitable winters
- The three Ps: perfectionism, procrastination, and people-pleasing, and how they hold entrepreneurs back
- The impact of culture on money mindset and confidence, comparing UK and US perspectives
- Practical steps to overcome self-doubt, set boundaries, and recognise your own achievements

Ceels offers actionable advice for anyone struggling with self-worth in business, encouraging listeners to lean into their strengths and trust the cyclical nature of growth. Find Ceels at ceelslockley.co and on Instagram @ceels.lockley.

Links from Ceels:
Learn how to create the foundations of your offer ecosystem in my free training: https://ceelslockley.co/the-line-up
Design, refine and develop your offers inside my program, Dreamium: https://ceelslockley.co/dreamium
Work with me 1:1 on your offer strategy over 30 days: https://ceelslockley.co/main-event-experience

Transcript

Audio Only - All Participants: 0:00

Hi, and welcome to the Authority Builder Podcast. Today I'm joined by Ceels Lockley. She's an offer strategy coach who helps female service providers design profitable, sustainable offers that align with their expertise and values. She began her career in 2010 as a digital con digital consultant and Squarespace designer before moving into agency leadership, which we have in common, where she spent years behind the scenes building and managing creative teams during the pandemic. She ran her own creative agency before transitioning into mentoring other freelancers full time and having experienced both the freelance and agency sides of the service industry. Ceels understands the real realities of client work, the hustle, the detail, the creative pressures that come with it. And since niching into offer design and strategy in 2022, she supported hundreds of talented women around the world in refining their positioning, packaging their expertise, and creating offers that sell with ease. So welcome Ceels. Thank you. Wow. Well, I did we write that introduction? it's a biggie. yeah, I adapted it. But some of my first questions are gonna be around your backstory and positioning, and I feel like I've covered most of that off in that part. it was a short story. Yeah, it really was. Yeah, I bet you were hang on. When am I, when do I say hi? I mean, it's fascinating to see how you are. Your role has pivoted and how you followed your interest. And I always think of it as the trail of crumbs that we're offered. Yes. And leaning into where your appetite is. but I'm, somebody who's also come from agencies. I'm so interested in the fact that you've pivoted from, 15 plus years in agencies.'cause many people spend their entire career there and it is a very addictive environment and very hard to. Because it's hard to get into, it's hard to get back out of because it's very competitive. It's, it can feel difficult to make that decision. So what was the turning point that led you to specialize in the space of mentoring, not offer strategy. Well, I think it's a really good question around, leaving the agency world and, and leaning into more of a mentoring role and not being lured back into to the kind of addictive nature of agencies. And I think the thing that really helped me to move away from that was the change in my lifestyle from being. senior director in an agency leading a creative team, working very long hours, commuting, doing lots of, travel, and just having this very sort of. A lifestyle, which as soon as I then had a baby, wasn't going to fit in. And so it was having my daughter, that really helped me to see which direction I wanted to go in. And actually I, when I, she was very small, I decided to set up an agency. This is during the pandemic, and that was the agency. I guess bug still in me and wanting to do that. And what I learned was that I didn't want to do that. I learned that having an agency as brilliant as it is, and as much as I would love, still love to have an agency of my own because I think it's just such a brilliant business to, to be able to run. But it comes with a lot of pressure and I felt that it wasn't something I wanted to continue to do. So I wrapped all of that up, leaned into the mentoring because I felt like. I've got the experience, I've got the ideas. I've got the ability to be able to help others, and I actually wanted to stop doing the do and actually help people with themselves. I wanted to create a bigger impact. Yeah, and we, I think we talked on one of our initial chats about, or at least in my head, we did the fact that I, well, similar story when I knew that I was gonna start a family. Ahead of time, about three years in advance was like, I need to get out of agency, because I saw women coming back into that space after the first child and looking knackered and then just not coming back after the second child. And it was like, I need to do this on my terms. And not that I didn't love working in an agency anymore, but I could just see that there was gonna be an incompatibility with where my lifestyle was going. And I wanted to, yeah, I needed to reconcile those things in advance rather than have it. Have myself forced into that decision. so what do you, I'm really, I, I love that you've talked about the fact that you still love the agency model and that it might be the right thing for you again at some point in the future. And just keeping yourself open to that, what, who are you working with now in terms of the service providers?'cause I know you specifically work with a lot of females and you also, Like you talk about service providers, do you find you're working with a lot of agencies now? I do work with quite a lot of agency owners, yes. And I think this is very interesting and this is why I will never say I'm never having an agency again, because I actually think. It's been really healing for me to step away from that lifestyle and to mentor people who have their own agencies and to help them to understand where their gaps are, which were gaps that I had and I didn't recognize at the time. But because of the work I do now where I'm helping people with their business model, with their mindset, with the way that they're applying their expertise to their offers, I can see where those gaps are for them. And it's very. It's very healing for me to be able to help them grow and achieve the, the, the success I suppose that all agencies have the potential to have. But unfortunately, a lot don't have because either like myself got really bad advice or weren't doing it the right time. Lifestyle wasn't compatible, burned out. di you know, didn't go with the right nee niche, so many reasons. But yeah, working with, agency owners is a big part of my work now, and I do do also, as you say, work with a lot of service providers. I, I love working with, people who just have those sort of. Hybridy, a little bit of coaching, a little bit of strategy. You know, not just pure done for you work. I work with a lot of people who are like myself doing coaching and a little bit of done for you. It all depends, you know, what the business is, but actually the, the rules are always the same. The principles always the same. And, we, you, on our initial chat, we talked a lot about. Imposter syndrome and that the root cause of it is fear. And I feel like this is something fear and a kind of almost bipolar experience of either thinking you're absolutely amazing or you're the worst ever, is one of the commonalities that I see with creative service providers, particularly in agencies. Why do you think, like, how does that fear usually show up for the service providers that you work with? It usually shows up as, as deep self-doubt, deep-seated, self-doubt. a confidence crisis. They might articulate it as an existential crisis. They might also say that they are confused or foggy. They don't know what to do next, what to focus on next. And. I've worked with so many women, women and people who are in the service provider world, and they all experience this. It's not, people think, oh gosh, it's just me. Like everyone else has got it figured out. It's every, everyone is going through this. It's, it's a greater or lesser extent. And in fact, people who are out there and you see and you think, oh, they're like an expert. They still go through this. To some extent as well, but the imposter really comes from you believing that you are not good enough, or you're not experienced enough, or you're not qualified enough, or you don't have enough, co coolness. you haven't worked with the right clients. And so it manifests as this constant, You know, constant block. And that then shows up in really interesting ways. So, for example, a service provider who's full of self-doubt, feeling foggy, not sure what to do next, will be behaving quite sporadically. Sometimes they might be creating random offers out of nowhere, launching a new offer every single month. their offers might just be really generic and boring because they are scared of. Doing anything a bit different. Like they're trying to almost, maybe they're trying to sort of simulate or emulate somebody else's business model. Because they think that that's what will work and then that will help them feel more confident. but I have a big belief that most of the time. The reason why people aren't successful yet or haven't made their business work yet, it's nothing really to do with their strategy. Like their strategy can be fixed really easily and is quite simple. It's actually what's within them. So the reason they're blocked and the reason the imposter syndrome comes up is because they haven't yet unpacked their expertise. They have it, it's already there, but they just haven't recognized it yet. Yeah, that's so interesting. I think, my goodness. I was thinking so many things as you were talking. Then I do some guest lecturing at graphic design courses across the UK because I'm finding so many more people are graduating fresh outta university and want to do their own thing immediately, and not just I'm, I'm talking specifically about. People in the creative space, like illustrators for example, do tend to go work for themselves immediately because the nature of the job. But also graphic designers are thinking about starting their own agency really early on rather than going to work for anybody else. And they just don't have any of the knowledge.'cause so many of those courses don't talk about pricing offers, product market fit, understanding all of the other business aspects like even just. Basic business development and marketing is just not even covered. It's so focused in on the creative side of things that I find people, they get into this world and then they feel a kind of a fear and, A fear that they're not doing it right or there's something wrong with them and they an inability to see things objectively. That I think just comes from, a lack of kind of communication between peers and also a lack of training at that foundational stage. You know, knowing what we know now that so many people who are going to be creative service providers will also be entrepreneurs. I feel like they, we need a basic level of understanding. About those aspects. So we, they don't cause us fear and they don't limit our potential in the future. that was a bit of a monologue, but I feel it's something I feel really strongly about. so why, why do you think that pricing and offers seem to trigger imposter syndrome so strongly? Well a money topic and all money topics can trigger emotion because we are pre-conditioned to believe that money is something we shouldn't talk about. Mm-hmm. we are in society conditioned to believe that we don't get to talk about money or that money is something that should be problematic. and especially if we've grown up around maybe, Being in, in poverty or living, in a situation where we've got parents or relatives or friends talking about lack of money. And so when we go into business ownership, there is this sense that we. somehow we've got to suddenly have a relationship with money that isn't a personal relationship. It's a business relationship. Mm-hmm. And a business relationship with money is asking other people to pay you money. And in no other way, apart from when we have a job. And even then, it's almost like. we'll pay you at the end of the month when you've done the work. In no other context in life, are we ever asking anybody to give us money in such a, such a sort of bold way. Yeah. So it can really present a lot of those feelings of inadequacy. And it can create this sense that we are having to almost ask or beg or, or feel like we have to get permission to charge a certain amount. And so that comes just quiet. Yeah, that comes up a lot. is your video supposed to be off? yeah, it's supposed off.'cause yours has gone off seal because I think your connection was unstable and video wasn't. Working properly, but it's fine. It's fine memory. That's okay. We're just gonna use the audio. I just thought it was distracting if you couldn't see yours and I had mine on. Oh, okay. I that's fine if you are happy with that. I just thought it might be nice to be able to see you, but, no, I, I can't see you though, is yours? Oh, I dunno why it to pretend itself off to be honest. There you go. I must have frozen and then eventually switched off. Yeah, sorry. There you go. My connection should be okay now, but yeah. Cool. Okay. The audio was fine, which was the bit I was worried about, so it's okay. Yeah, we love a bit of tech. so yeah, so I think in terms of the way that pricing affects our confidence as business owners, it comes up so much with that. Kind of pull between, this is my personal money mindset around my relationship with money. Mm-hmm. And now I have a business and I have to apply some sort of relationship with money to my business. And what people don't get taught is that your business is a separate entity and that your personal money mindset really. Shouldn't have a bearing on how you price your offers, how you approach business. Yeah. But what happens is people will naturally, start to use all of their money assumptions. And their feelings around money and inflict that on their business. So for example, they might undercharge, they might give discounts, they might say things like, I think it's not really worth it, talking about somebody's price. Oh, I want to make it, I want to price it accessibly. I want to make it feel fair for my clients. I don't want to price myself out of the market. And these sorts of things come up. Mm-hmm. And that is, that is really coming from a place of uncertainty. Lack of confidence, lack, I'm just thinking as well. I mean, for example, your website domain is Ceels luckily.com, right? Co I think. Yeah, dot co. And I think that this is something that you share in common with, I imagine a lot of people who will be your clients, but also I'm thinking, back to creative agencies, illustrators, people who work independently. So many, Companies are literally that person's name, so it is so hard to separate down self and business. yeah, completely get that. And it was one of the big reasons why I didn't use my own name. For my business.'cause I knew that was gonna be a challenge for me. Yeah. so can you talk to me a little bit about the Four Seasons of Office?'cause I love this metaphor that you use in, in your business, the four seasons of business. Can you walk through us through how, imposter syndrome plays out at each stage? Yeah. So. We have typically a seasonality to how we strategically go through business growth. And I like to see this a bit like the four seasons of the year. You know, starting with spring all the way through to winter, but. It's a very interesting time when we are moving into a winter, let's say, and typically you're gonna be moving into a winter, or you might be in a winter when you are struggling, when you have slow sails, when you are not sure what you're doing, when you are changing things. So you'll be going into a winter if you are pivoting and all of a sudden everything goes quiet because you've changed your messaging and your audience are now cold because you've changed your audience. That is a winter. And very much like a normal winter, it's going to feel bleak, it's going to feel hard, it's going to feel long. And then we move into your spring. So eventually your work, your confidence, your, the things that you are dealing with will improve and you'll move into a spring. And that's when we start to get those green shoots, we start to experience, Sales and inquiries, and then we move into summer where things are thriving. Summer is where in business everything is thriving and you have some sustainability and stability, and then autumn is all about change. So if you are refining your offers, if you're changing things up, if you are starting to think about. rebranding or updating a website or changing something in your messaging, you'll be in an autumn and during autumn you might feel a little bit of that imposter coming in around that shift because you are going to start to feel unsafe again. So spring and summer you might be feeling on the up, you might be feeling more confident. winter, that's where we really start to doubt ourselves and the imposter will come up more, more prevalently. So how do you help? I, well, do you know what, first of all, I love this kind of concept of, because we're all aiming for summer, right? That's our goal. Spring into summer. But, you know, the, the, the metaphor of the Four Seasons indicates that that is never gonna be a constant summer doesn't stay forever, and that it will at some point, evolve. And we need to be aware of that and conscious of it and not take it personally when it does. but how do you help your clients stay the course through the winter of an offer? Very, very good question because it's not easy. How I help them is I have to give them a lot of reframes. What you're going through right now is normal. You are going to be feeling uneasy. This feels unsafe because you are not getting validation on your sales activities yet. is clicking. and that. Constant feeling of is this working? Why isn't this working? I should just, and then people are like, I should just give up. I, there's, there's no point. This isn't working. The thing I help people with is discipline, consistency, and accountability. So during the winter, we focus on. Just keeping you going. A bit like a UK winter. We just need to keep going. Just put the heating on, grab some more blankets. Have a hot shark. Watch slushy movie. Like whatever you need to do to get through winter. And it's the same in business because you are going to feel very dysregulated during this season. You are going to feel like you want to jack it all in and you want to start doing something else. You'll be on LinkedIn jobs. You'll be looking at, can I go and work in corporate again? Whatever. and you might not have enough sales, so you might be panicking again. The money mindset's gonna come and start saying to you, oh, well, you haven't got enough money. You're not gonna make it. You are gonna, we're gonna have a a crisis. We've got a crisis ahead. Must, must fix. And so it's trusting and working through all of those feelings and knowing that. If you do stick with your winter, if you stick with it and you work through it, there will always, always be a spring. Because it's cyclical. It's so cyclical and even people who have created a lot of success will go back into a winter occasionally because businesses constantly evolving. No one is in summer forever, and everyone will always be going through all of these seasons. Such, such a good analogy. I really struggle through the UK winter and I have this, plan now and it is literally a list of all the things that make me happy. One of them is like. Make a licorice tea. Another one's like plan a holiday. You know, varying levels of love, that energy and finance involved. But, just made me realize that I don't have something similar for my business, and this is something that I've struggled with in the last 18 months and taken very personally. And so I talked to. Until I started talking about it and sharing it both with coaches, with colleagues, and then realizing it wasn't just me and it wasn't personal, and actually I needed to stop being so subjective about it and look at the situation and make a plan around it rather than feel, Rather than go into that kind of downward spiral, self-fulfilling prophecy thing where you just, it's just gonna get worse and worse. So yeah. Such an interesting, Interesting kind of thought process of like having your, your toolbox of the things you just do, just to continue the grind and get through. We talk a lot about consistency being the most important thing here at Caffeine. Just doing the thing and showing up, even if you don't feel like it, even if it doesn't feel perfect, or a hundred percent just like doing it is so much more important than, than having it just right. And, I, I think the same spirit applies to getting through the winters of business. Yes, most likely. Yes. So you've, you've talked about procrastination, perfectionism, and people pleasing the three P's as the big, contrary to what, Kotler told me in my marketing textbook of the four P's, as the three big symptoms of, imposter syndrome. Which one do you see most often in your clients? Probably perfectionism. it, it really depends on the person, but a lot of the time it, it kind of ends up being the, the combination. They're, they're actually a duo. They, they coexist these three things. So outwardly, it's probably perfectionism in terms of you can see that someone is waiting for something to be ready, or for them to suddenly have a moment of clarity or to suddenly have everything right or feel ready. We are, we're waiting to feel ready to be ready. And this is very common. It's a block that is very, it's very paralyzing. It might. Be articulated sometimes as paralysis analysis, oh, I just keep thinking and thinking and thinking about this thing. And as you've said, taking action, just getting on with it, even if it's not perfect. I'm such a fan of as well, and I teach that with all my clients, particularly my mastermind, where we, we literally have to know that every single week somebody's gonna turn up and say. I feel paralyzed, I dunno what I'm, you know what I want to do. And so working, constantly working through those thoughts. Now people pleasing is an interesting one because that actually is quite insidious in business. It's not something, somebody wouldn't come to a call and say to me, I'm, I'm a people pleaser. I would actually have to say to them, that thing you are doing with that discount you are giving your clients because they're coming back to you for a second time. That's people pleasing. And they'll go, really? And I'm like, yeah, that's, that is people pleasing in, in disguise of being helpful, in disguise of being good value. so it can be, it can be really kind of bedded into a lot of different places. Like scope creep is people pleasing. If you allow a client to have something for free that is not in the scope, that is people pleasing. sorry, go on. No, no, no. You go. what happens when someone begins to break those people pleasing patterns?'cause I really feel like people pleasing is, is the most common thing that I see. And I, I think maybe because I'm so attuned to it now. Like you said, scope creep to me is immediately like, I'm like, that's, I see it everywhere and there is a, in my own behavior as well, because this is something that I'm working through. What shifts can you expect if you. Embrace the idea that you don't need to please everyone and you set new boundaries, then you can expect two things. Firstly, you can expect to feel very uncomfortable at first. And you're going to be scared and you're going to be full of fear, and you're going to think that that client you've just sent an email to, to say, no, I don't want to have a call on Friday because I'm not available. Even though every other Friday you've said yes to that call, you are going to imagine that that client is going to do something terrible like. Sack you and, never pay you again. so that, that's the first thing that's going to happen. You're going to get scared and you're going to worst case scenario end of the world. all of those things are going to play out in your head. You're going to feel uncomfortable. You're going to feel like you don't want to do the boundary setting or changing whatever it is. You're changing the process or the update that you are making, which, which is you resetting that, that thing that you were people pleasing on. And then once you've done it, you are going to notice something. You're going to notice that everything is fine. Everything is great, and actually that worst case scenario that you imagined isn't going to happen. It doesn't happen. In fact, you quite often find if you set boundaries, particularly, this is where we're fixing people pleasing. We're setting a new boundary, or we're changing a process, or we are saying, I'm not doing that anymore. We're setting a new behavior. All of the things we were scared of. Very, very unlikely that they'll ever happen. And actually the opposite sometimes happens. People sometimes respond really well. And it improves everything. Improves your business, improves your client relationships, improves your time, improves your energy, improves all of the things. So basically. improve, if you want to fix your people pleasing, you have to lean into this comfort and know and trust on the other side of it. All of the good things are going to happen. Yeah. I think I said this on our, our initial call, but one of my favorite quotes is, everything you want is on the other side of fear. It's kind of, and it plays up in so many different areas. Yeah. But you know, personally, I found that when I do set boundaries, which can be really uncomfortable in certain. Situations, actually, it brings a lot more clarity for both sides to the situation. And it opens a, a working dialogue that is much better than it was previously. So I would say that there's untold bounty on the other side of, of working on this and, and setting boundaries. Things that you might not expect, advantages you might not expect. yeah, and a, and a clarity to the way you work. And for somebody who's very direct and, and. Possibly blunt. well, definitely blunt. That is great because I want things to be clear and it annoys me that sometimes in the name of people pleasing, I put barriers in the way to that. so yeah, that's, That's a pleasing aspect of sorting out people pleasing. yeah, I, another thing that is a really common topic, I think that we share is around limiting beliefs and particularly the kind of cultural context around that. So can you just, for the people who've not come across that word before, or it's a bit jargony for them, can you give me your definition of a limiting belief and how can business owners start to recognize this? Yes, a limiting belief is simply a thought that you are having, which is stopping you from making progress or seeing your full potential. And we say the word limiting because it's limit. It's literally limiting you from those, those things that you want. And. You will not necessarily know your limiting beliefs. Sometimes you will be aware of them. So an example of a limiting belief is I can't charge that much for say, your offer or your service. a limiting belief around money is, I'm not worth that much. I, I don't think somebody is going to pay me 3000 pounds for my done for you strategy offer. And the limiting belief is. Something we need to get comfortable recognizing, writing down and reframing. And so I always think with a, with a limiting belief, we need to go, almost like underneath where it's coming from. So with my example of, I don't think I can charge 3000 pounds for a done for you strategy. Yeah. I'm always like, well, why, why not? because I, I know somebody who does the same offer and it's only 1500. Well, are you that person? Do you have exactly the same experience as that per person? Is your process exactly the same? Is your offer exactly the same? And so we kind of want to really interrogate and question where your logic is coming from with your belief. Because most limiting beliefs are actually assumptions. They're not based on facts. They are based on an assumption that you've made about somebody else or about yourself. And the best way to overcome them is to. Look at how you can reframe. So I can't charge 3000 pounds for a Dumper You strategy. I'm gonna reframe that. I am an expert. I can charge 3000 pounds for the right client. The right client will pay me 3000 pounds and be overjoyed to pay me 3000 pounds because of my experience, my skills, and the result I'm gonna create for them in my offer. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, just focusing on the last bit of that statement, the result you're gonna create for them in the offer I. When client, my clients are struggling with this, I encourage them to go back and speak to previous clients and get a, a sense of the return and investment and the results that have been achieved. And it's not always a financial thing, right? It could be something else that was an objective, right, of that particular brief or that, that service and that, container of working together. But if you've got that res result, then you can put a. Price point around that. And if you can demonstrate you've helped somebody to achieve that before you come into it with so much more, you basically, I find that's the fastest way to overcome a limiting belief, especially around money and around positioning of an offer. When people are saying, no, no, I can't do that. and it's something I have to repeat in my own business as well. I just found out earlier somebody who paid me 900 pounds for a a done with you service has just won a really big client out of that within less than a month, and I am so excited to go get a testimonial from them because I know that I'm gonna come to. Future sales calls, future presentations around that offer, and even delivering that service to people with a completely different energy because I have just more evidence to knock those kind of limiting beliefs that I definitely have and I'm working around and, and working and pushing against. wading through mud rather. It helps to put them back in their place. so I'd say gather evidence as well. So important. And in terms of,'cause I know we, we've got something in common in the sense that we work with, people both in the UK and Europe and and North America. And I've definitely noticed differences between my UK clients and my North American clients. Like how do you, how does culture shape the way that imposter syndrome and those limiting beliefs show up? So generally speaking, we as a culture in the UK are conditioned to money is not a topic we talk about. Mm-hmm. It's not a dinner table topic. No, it's, it's not. Seen as very becoming to talk about money. Anyone who talks about money is seen as, oh, well you are bragging, you are showing off. Mm-hmm. That is the culture here in the uk and that is generally how people see money. And the wealthy are seen as greedy and the poor, you know, mean in this country. Let's not get into political debate, but obviously we have a massive problem with poverty in this country. and the and the wealth gap. The gap between the wealthy and the PO and the poor. and so money is a really, really strange kind of topic for a lot of people in our, in our culture. Whereas if we just fly across the pond, I think in the states, and this is, this is my experience of working with hundreds of people who are, who are based in the states and, have grown up in, in US culture. The relationship with money is different. It's different in that there is a much more open dialogue about money. Mm-hmm. And also I think that somewhere in the education system and in culture in the states, there is a much more positive, relationship with money, but also with investment. And this business, the, the business relationship with money that, business owners have in the US is they're much more willing to invest. They understand the power of investment and so. There is a more arti, they articulate money better and they also understand it better. So they will be more open, I think, to investing in themselves. they put themselves first more, they have a much better relationship with their confidence and with their expertise, and. You know that, I mean, I'm from the uk, you know, we're all very humble and shy and we've got all our little, sorry, excuse me. That's our cultural, sort of, nor the noise of our culture. Whereas, you know, over in the States, it's, it's take up space. You know, you are loud, you're brass, you're bold. And I think that really does echo in business. I see that, my US clients, I'm a lot more confident, a lot more in there. in their expertise because they, they don't have those as many limiting beliefs. And not to say they don't have them, they do experience them, but I think our culture has shaped us differently. And I, I'm using those two examples just as examples. UK versus us. I've seen this a lot. I've worked with a lot of people from both places, and it's really super interesting, isn't it? Yeah, it's, yeah, it's super interesting. I come from, the north of England, where I heard somebody describe it this way recently. We don't like tall poppies. You know, anybody who, Yeah, from a very working class, originally background in West Yorkshire, which is a very working class area, very impoverished, actually post kind of fifties, 1950s. And and yet there is an element of back in your box if you think if somebody perceives you to be, egotistical, but often. It's what is perceived as egotistical in that kind of culture is actually just confidence and self-belief. Yeah. And it's heartbreaking to me that those things which is so hard to cultivate, particularly as an entrepreneur, should be punished. and there is something I find really interesting with. American friends and colleagues and I can kind of probe a bit more with American friends, because, you know, we have a personal relationship rather than a professional one as to like, what is it about you and the way you grow up that makes you different. You know, like what is it about this self-belief and self-worth that is instilled, so greatly in you? By something to do with the education or parental raising or that, it's really fascinating to me'cause there's a definite difference there. And I think, you know, just linking back to the previous conversation around, money people pleasing and, and limiting beliefs. I think there is, and I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but there's an element in the UK of. Work has to be hard. Yes. Like it has to feel really difficult. It can't be easy, otherwise you're cheating somebody out of money. and you should have charged less. And I think this is where it comes back into pricing an offer. and I don't see North American counterparts having the same challenges around that. they're more comfortable. Pricing things based on what they know. The potential result could be based on their experience and, evidence, but also pricing for the, their experience and, and the time they've taken to gather that expertise and, and develop that knowledge into a proprietary way of doing things. And when I think about creative agency specifically, and to be honest, any service providers where you're dealing with. Intellectual property. It really is a culmination of all the connections you've made in your brain over a period of time and knowing that that has value to somebody and then putting a price point around that. but there's something I know, I know this is not all British people, right? But that I know that. A lot of people here in the UK get that, but I think they struggle to translate that into an offer with a respectable price point around it, because it doesn't necessarily feel hard to them. There's an expression somewhere, and I'm gonna say it wrong now, but the charge doesn't reflect the 10 minutes it took me to do it. It reflects the 10 years it took me to. Learn how to do it. And I said that really, shit. There's a much more eloquent way of saying it, but it's, it's leaning into that and having the confidence, not just knowing it, but actually living it. Sorry, it was a, that was a, a rhetorical question. I just went on a big stump. stumped there. okay, so we beyond, I wanna talk about a bit about beyond the stereotype, because we often talk about imposter syndromes being, a women's issue. But from your perspective, how does it affect men as well? Because I know we, we talked a little bit about this in advance, and do men just mask it differently? Yeah, I think it affects everyone whether you are, you know, however you identify, you will ex experience imposter syndrome. And I think that we do generally think that it's a female issue, or somebody who's, who's born female. and that probably is, is to some degree true in, in a patriarchal society, right? Women are generally, you know, already in a position of. You know, you are not, you're not good enough, you're not pretty enough, you're not sexy enough, you're not smart enough. You know, there's so much pressure on women. but we do see this, we do see this in everyone. Everyone goes through this to some greater, a lesser extent. And I think what we were saying before was that men are much better at almost. Overriding their emotions. Mm-hmm. Whereas, because, because generally speaking, their brains are wired to be more practical and logical. They will, they'll experience it, but they'll also be quite good at masking through it. And so this whole. Mediocre man, mediocre, middle-aged man called Steve, selling his 10 K service. Steve probably does have a bit of imposter syndrome, but he's really good at masking it. And he'll go in to that boardroom and pitch his 10 k offer and win the work. And he's so mediocre. But he'll win the work because he's got the, he's got the, the chat. He's got the gift of the gab. And meanwhile, the other person who walks into the room. Who is a much more experienced, much more skilled service provider, who perhaps is female, is going to go in there with their imposter syndrome, and that is going to. Come across in their energy, in the way they put themselves across, because they are so conscious of it, because they haven't managed to bullshit their way through life because they are a, a lot more conscientious than, middle-aged, mediocre Steve, and therefore Steve is gonna win the work. And so we have this lovely saying, which is like, for every, For every project you think you are overcharging, there's some middle-aged guy out there, mediocre, middle-aged guy out there charging twice as much and he's half as good. yeah. And invariably it's true. Really? You've gotta really, yeah. Be mindful of that. I mean, it's a bit like the stat about woman will only apply for a job if she can do 80% of the. job description, whereas a guy will, will apply for it if he can do like 40% or 50%, or there's a huge gap in terms of our ability. Yeah, I think a big part of that is about this, you mentioned practicality and logic, but I think it's also there's an ability to override the subjective perspective and look at things objectively, which I think is super powerful and I think it's attainable. By all of us with some effort. It's something that I really have to work on. And I think that, this is where having somebody on your side as a coach, mentor, a colleague who can guide you even like a work buddy, Who can guide you through this when you are wobbling, I think is hugely important. Help you to see the objective perspective when you are leaning towards the subjective. but so on that note, I'm just thinking about practical steps and encouragement. If somebody listening in to this recognizes themselves in what you're describing, like the undercharging, overworking, people pleasing, what is the very first step they can take to start shifting things? Well, one of the things I like to focus on is that you go back to go, go back to yourself. Write down 50 things that you are really good at. Think 50 things that you enjoy, 50 things that you think that you've done well in the past. Examples at moments where you felt really good about the work you've done, because your imposter syndrome will really hate that. They're really not like you picking yourself up. And actually the first step too. Overcoming any kind of self-doubt is to focus on what you are good at is to focus on what you excel in and we all have something. I do not believe that anyone is talentless. Every, everyone who has even made the move to start a business, there's something within them. There is a little shard of, of gold that that is different to people who stayed in the job because. They've gone, no, I want to be outside of this, corporate, towing the line in the corporate world. I want to start a business. Yeah. That already makes you extraordinary. That already make means that you recognize something within yourself that's different. So pull that out, start to write down what it is you are really good at, and that will tell you a lot about who you are and why you are maybe. It's not so much what you know, why you are coming up with the imposter. The imposter is simply a sign that you are ready to do more. It's actually wi, it's a weird one, and I like to say this. Your imposter syndrome is a sign that you need to make change. It's a sign that you need to lean further into all of the things that feel scary. And so that would be the first step. And once you've written that list, you can really see, okay, well ha, hang on a minute. I'm actually really, really good at. you know, actually I'm really good at copywriting and design, so I'm gonna combine those two things together and I'm gonna focus on that. I'm gonna stop focusing on ads or funnels or whatever other thing you're trying to do. And from there you can start to really build more confidence by leaning in to the things that you are better at, the things that you feel good about doing. I was gonna say, there's something that I do that helps with this, but actually I think it might just be evidence of people saying, I have a folder on my desktop on my Mac called good stuff, and every time I get some positive feedback or a result, or it doesn't have to be from somebody else, just something that I'm really happy about that I know is the kind of. Marker of an achievement, I screenshot it and I put it in that folder for effectively a rainy day mental health wise, where I'm very doubting myself and I just go through screenshot after screenshot and remind myself, no, these are the things that I'm good at. and it's hugely helpful. So, I mean, I know you identify with all this, you describe yourself as a recovering people pleaser. How do you keep yourself in check every day? I think I've got quite good at noticing when it is coming in because it always comes in, no matter how experienced you are. I've been doing this kind of work for a really long time. I've worked with lots of clients and I still have days where I'm what am I doing? who do you, who do you think you are? you don't know what you're doing. and I really on those days. I, I have two coping mechanisms. One of them is just to get in the weeds and work with my clients. And by doing, taking that action, I am actually, okay. We don't, we we're good. Everything is fine. You know what you're doing. I do also think your tip about going back and looking at what you've achieved and what you've done, a reflection, not necessarily of course. Definitely look at the, look at the testimonials and the good things people have said about you, but also I, I find that I just need to reflect sometimes and catch myself and be hang on a minute. What did we achieve in the last three months or the last six months? If ever I feel my imposter or some self-doubt creeping in, I just need to go and sit with myself for a minute and be. Look at all these great things you achieved. Also go back further. Go back five years. What were you doing five years ago? Well, five years ago, I, well, it was a pandemic, wasn't it? But five years ago I had an agency that I was just like, not making any money, feeling really, really confused. Had a baby on my knee, was really just going through absolutely hell in the pandemic. like, wow. Okay, great. Yes. All right. We know what we're doing. Perspective. Yeah. Do you know what, that's such a good point because all the people I know who are ambitious, but also have a, a veer towards people pleasing, have an uncanny ability not to recognize their own achievements and immediately move on to the next thing as soon as they've done something. I am horrific at this, and it's. I think it's kind of like tied back to that tall pip poppy syndrome, as in you need to, back in your box. Just get on with it, be stoical and, don't celebrate yourself too much. But it's very, it, it's very toxic over a longer period of time because you'll just find you, you move more and more rapidly, less and less satisfied. Not gratification from achieving things. And I think it's, it's very important, to reflect on what's been achieved. I had a conversation on a personal level with a friend about this the other day of a coffee. And, she was like talking about how 10 years ago, this was her dream life and she had no idea that it was attainable. And she's so proud of herself, for what she's achieved. And she's a nurse. She's not somebody who's an entrepreneur. she's worked her ass off to get where she is and to have the family life that she's got and against a lot of odds. And, it was a reminder. To, to do it for myself and to look around and just appreciate, on a personal level, not just a business level. but I think, yeah, a lot of these people who are recovering people pleasers are terrible at recognizing their own achievements. so there's definitely something very important to check in on. just to finish off, what do you hope creatives and service providers start believing by their, about their value in the next five to 10 years? What a great question. I think in terms of what I want them to believe, I want'em to believe that they are enough. That they already have everything they need. And I think in this world of constant gratification, searching for validation, searching for something more new, more exciting, more, the next thing that's gonna make you the next 10 K, we actually need to go back to. Who are you? What do you do brilliantly? That is what matters. And actually that's where I would love people to go is to, is for expertise and for your, in your own skills and your own magic to be the most valuable thing about. Business, not, oh, well I've got this great strategy, or you know, I've paid this much money for my branding. Like, yes, those things help, but the thing that's going to really transform how your business runs in the next five to 10 years is your relationship with yourself. Yeah, absolutely. oh gosh, my brain's just completely blanked. I was just gonna say something. oh my goodness. Sales. That's okay. She needs a coffee. yeah, do you need a coffee? I had such a strong opinion about something then, and it just completely went, oh yeah, I know what I was gonna say. So I think, you know, just building on that, you said something before I think is worth magnifying again, is anybody who starts a business has, you mentioned like a glint of gold, like a shard of something in them. And I just, I had a similar conversation yesterday where somebody said to me. The fact you're still in business. It wasn't about me. It was a, it was about somebody else. But the fact you're still in business after 10 years means something's going right. And it's so funny'cause having been in business 11 years, I every day am looking at the things that could be going better. And not recognizing the fact that I'm still in business after that period of time means I've beaten the odds. Yes. And statistically, and I think, from a similar perspective, the, the thing that you just said about the being a shard of something special within you and trusting and believing and recognizing that, the fact that you've made a move to do something that is, from our cave person mentality is unsafe. it puts us outside of the pack, removing yourself from employment where you get a solid salary at the end of each month, doing something where you don't have stability and there's a lot of doubt. It's really fucking hard. And if you've got the tenacity and a, a glint of something. Resembling talent within you. That means you've gone ahead and set up your own business, then you've already got everything you need inside of you, right to, you just need to, yeah, keep the voices quiet and keep moving forward and keep showing up and doing the thing. Do the damn thing. Yes, absolutely. Well, look, it was such a pleasure to speak to you today, and can you just say who should get in contact with you and where they should head, and we'll put these links in the show notes as well. Yeah. So if you are a service provider, a coach, an agency owner, and you wanna chat to me about offers or offer strategy, pricing, just how to make your business run, more smoothly and more in alignment with who you really are and your expert skills. you can find me@Ceelslockley.co. I'm also on Instagram at Ceels Lockley, and I also have a great free training, which is worth. finding, it's called the lineup and it'll just show you a bit of a system thinking about your offer ecosystem, and well worth, getting, getting hands on that. Amazing. I'm gonna go check that out too. Well, thank you so much. Sales. I really appreciate you joining us today. and look forward to the next time. Thank you for having me.