Building Authority in a Niche: Heather Hammell on MFR Business Growth

In this episode, Charlotte Ellis Maldari welcomes Heather Hammell, renowned MFR coach, author, and podcaster, to discuss building authority and finding clients in the highly specialised field of myofascial release (MFR). Heather shares her journey from struggling MFR therapist to successful business coach, highlighting the importance of niching down, community-building, and charging what you’re worth.

Key topics include:
- What myofascial release is and how it differs from other therapies
- The global spread and training challenges of MFR
- The power and trade-offs of micro-niching
- Building authority through books, podcasts, and seminars
- Creative marketing strategies, including affiliate programmes and branded swag
- Overcoming mindset blocks, imposter syndrome, and the importance of modelling success
- Retention strategies and balancing mindset coaching with practical business advice

Heather’s story is a masterclass in leveraging expertise, community, and personal branding to create a thriving business in a niche market. 

Find out more at

www.themfrcoach.com/foundation

https://themfrcoach.com/beyond-100k

https://themfrcoach.com/podcast/

https://themfrcoach.com/toolbox

www.themfrcoach.com/webinar (monthly free live trainings)

Transcript

Audio Only - All Participants: 0:00

Hi, and welcome to the Authority Builder Podcast. Today I'm joined by Heather Hammell, who has been the MFR coach for several years. But before stepping into that role, she was an MFR therapist herself, facing the same challenge as many in the field. She was struggling to sell services, working incredibly hard and nearly burning out just to make ends meet. So today, she's a life and business coach dedicated exclusively to helping MFR therapists get and stay fully booked whilst building profitable sustainable practices. She's also an author, podcaster and thought leader in the MFRC community, and I am, so happy for her to join us today and talk specifically about how to build authority and find clients in a very, very specific niche because. MFR is a very specific niche and we, are about to start working together actually. it's incidental because it's not the reason why we're recording this podcast, but, it's so exciting to me when somebody has got a really clear niche because it makes it not necessarily super easy, but super defined in terms of who we're going after and what we can say to them. But anyhow, I'm just going on a monologue. So Heather, welcome. Thank you for joining me today. Thanks for having me. I'm super to just talk about Myofascia release in general because my whole mission is to make Myofascia release mainstream. And part of this mission is just talking about it everywhere and anywhere to people who will let me. So thanks for letting me do that. Well look, to start with can you give a definition of what it is because, so I, yes. Even I could do is definitely start there. So Myofascia release is a body work modality, and it works because it addresses both two components in the body. So as we've got collagen and we have elastin, most therapies that are out there usually just address the elastin layer, the elastic component. And that's why when you get a massage, you go to the chiropractor, you go to physical therapy. You feel good while they're doing the modality to you, but by the time you get to the car, or by the time you lay down that night, you're kind of back to where you were at the beginning of the day. Mm-hmm. Because they're only addressing that elastic layer. Myofascia release addresses both things, and in order to address the collagen layer, you really have to use time and pressure to release that, and that's what gives you the long, long-term lasting benefits. So to summarize, this is a modality that helps people who have been diagnosed with chronic and unexplained pain conditions, maybe they're also in acute pain, and they're not getting the relief that they want. Mal facia release the, is the thing that will help you get long-term relief. And so do, is it used in combination with physical therapy and chiropractic care, et cetera, or is it generally deployed as a modality by people who provide that kind of care as an additional thing? Yes, and yes. So I, my background is in massage therapy. Mm-hmm. a lot of the people that I coach, their background is physical therapy, occupational therapy. I've got speech and language pathologists, nurses, I know there, I know of chiropractors that are trained in myofascial release. And I know of doctors that are trained in myofascia release. So basically you can't take your under learning out of you, you know, whatever you went to school for to get your license to touch. So you're gonna inform all of your decisions based on that. But MFR itself is its own modality. So, you know, maybe your chiropractor does, is trained in this and does it, maybe they adjust you or, and then they do myofascia release. It's a separate. It's a separate thing. Okay. Okay. So an add-on service, but not one that you are adding on when you, when you Yeah, for for my patients, I treat them for the full hour, just myofascia release. Okay. Yeah. Okay. On personally, we're gonna go some, do some more investigation into this now. And is it, it, where would you say it's most predominant? is it, is it a modality that's mainly used in certain regions? Because I know for example, chiropractic care is just the standard in Australia and New Zealand. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And here in the UK it's super expensive and not provided on the NHS and something that's quite a challenge to find somebody who's really good in that area. Yeah. Very interesting. So most providers of this, most of the ones that I work with are in the US and Canada, but I do know that there are providers in. Australia. I, there are some in Ireland that I know of. There are some, I believe in Germany, so, and I know, I know there are some in the UK as well. so it's, it's limited because people come to the US to get this training. So this specific training is done by a man named John Barnes, he's the founder of this particular brand of Myofascia release, and that's where people get their training. So, it's a lot of, dedication to fly across the pond to come to the, come get that training and then go back and, and implement it. And most of the time the providers, all the providers I, coach with are cash based. So it's not really something that insurance is covered by, unless maybe you're getting lucky enough to get it from someone that works for a large hospital or something like that. Got it. Okay. Yeah. So kind of typical of here, if it's not covered on insurance in the US it's very unlikely to be covered on the NHS here, but yeah. Okay. Really, and that's actually a good thing because you want your person that's trained in this to be making your healthcare decisions with you, not based on what an insurance company says is okay for you to have. So I like to look at it in that way of, yeah. Yeah, you're gonna pay cash for it. Yes, it does cost money'cause it costs a lot of money to get this education. Mm-hmm. But you're gonna be getting really elite and specialized healthcare when you go that route. And that leads to a really good point around, well I was gonna ask why niche in a particular area, but you've just said it the people are committing a lot of money to getting this particular qualification, doing this training in some cases, traveling really long distances to go get the training with the founder of this particular technique. the family within this. Yeah. Any. Yes. Going to John Barnes is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. So why, I guess I'm kind of answering my own question, but why commit to MFR therapists only versus the kind of broader market and what trade-offs and advantages have you seen, dedicating yourself to that area and helping those people? Yeah, I think for me, and I don't know if this would translate to other people, but having been in myofascia release therapist for over 10 years before I became a coach for, for them, it, I really struggled to feeling alone in my modality.'cause I'm the literally the only one in my town or city. And that's the same for most people. Yeah, right. So it's lonely. And then there's nothing in particular geared towards a myofascia release business. It's oh, join a program and learn about how to have a chiropractic business or learn how to have a massage therapy business or learn how to have. An occupational therapy or a physical therapy practice, which is fine, but you also then have to distill everything down to make it mean what you need it to mean in order for you to get your practice going, which can slow you down, I think. And also the messaging is just a little bit off. So when I first got into coaching, I just really wanted to help Myofascia release therapists only mostly because I wanted them to never feel alone, and I also wanted to create an environment where it was safe for them to make a lot of money. I think healers, people that are in healing professions set themselves up to under earn because they think that that's what they have to do in order to get people to buy from them. And I like to flip that on its head and, and really let people know that it's safe for them to charge what they need to charge and what they want to earn so that they can have a life outside of just practicing on people all day, every day. In this, when people are in chronic and unexplained pain, that's a lot to carry when you're doing that all day long and then you go home and you're broke on top of that, that's, that sucks. So I wanna, I want them to be rich and I want people to want to go into Myofascia release as a career because they can be high earners, not just because it is, nice. Yeah. To help people. Yeah. It's so interesting. I, I really RA raises a lot of. Thought to me outside of work, I have a lot of friends who work in caring professions, either in healthcare or more generally caring around that. And it's so interesting that one very close relative in particular, her vocation is nursing and caring for people. And that's wonderful at work, but it shows up in ways she's taken advantage of outside of work. And I, and I think, you know, we were always told when we were younger, nursing is a vocation. And I think you've been told that I know we're not talking about nursing here. You've been told that you are a healer, a carer, somebody who takes on that role in other people's lives. Then there's a. I mean, I don't want to go off on a feminist ramp, but there's a parallel somewhere with the unpaid labor of Yeah. You know, and or not being able to overcharge or not being able to charge the right amount, the correct amount. Mm-hmm. And, and then there is a flip side to it, which is, you know, coming at it with an entrepreneur's hat on, what is the, return on investment that somebody gets from, from what you offer In this case, if they're in chronic pain and you are offering a, you know, a, a way to resolve that, then how can you put a price on that? And, so I can, yeah, I can completely see how that becomes a challenge. And I can also see how smart it is as. and how smart it's to really hone in on, on a micro niche where people are feeling isolated as you're hearing it. I'm thinking this is win, win, win because these people might be the only provider in their town, which is incredible because they basically have a monopoly, right? And it's really just about educating people who would benefit from this service about what it is. This is the most amazing part of marketing. You know, right. It's and that's, they don't know that they think that they're providing something that people don't understand or that need to, the whole community needs to buy into this and understand in order for them to create clients. And that's why I come in and I'm like, you just need to understand. How you help people and the results that they get and get really comfortable talking about that over and over and over again. Yeah. It's not about talking about the modality, it's about talking about the client, you know, and they don't learn that anywhere else. That's where I come in and we, we get that messaging down and that confidence down to talk about it, and they become that expert in their town instead of waiting for their town to kind of envelop them and, and welcome them in. It's no, just show up as the expert from the beginning. I just, I love that that is relevant across. I can't think of an industry that's not relevant and talk about the pain, the challenge, the solution, like the results that you can expect from the other end. You don't have to talk about the method, right? And most of these people are focused on the method. It's like we love John, like he's changed our lives because we've, you know, a lot of us come to this from some sort of chronic pain angle for ourselves. So, but at a certain point we have to learn to put ourselves in the expert seat and talk about the client. And it's okay to still love who you learned from, but that's not what people are buying. They're not buying the training, they're buying the result. Absolutely. I mean, John's doing his job, right? Yeah. He's teaching you how to actually deploy it, but Absolutely. So it's amazing that you have this adjacent role, for MFR therapists in terms of how they then communicate that in a way that is gonna help them, thrive in business. Have you seen any trade-offs?'cause we talked a lot about the advantages there, but are there any trade offs to micro nicheing down on this particular area? Yeah, I think one thing I've seen is that there, there will become periods of time, and I'm experiencing this right now, where you almost Run out of leads or you have to get, and I don't actually believe that I can run out of leads'cause there's hundreds of thousands of people out there and people are still continuing to get training. Mm. But I have to be creative. Yeah. And I have to be willing to do things, to keep pushing forward and, and collecting leads and talking to people. I really have to be kind of a, example of what I teach my clients. Like I have to, I have to go first and try all of these things first and continually do them and just kinda example. So, and I guess, you know, it's, something that is growing. I'm just thinking of, you know, the work we'll do in LinkedIn and this, we did a bit of work in advance looking for the search term around MFR and I'm just thinking when you save that search down as a very practical way of thinking, but I'm just thinking every week you're gonna get an email saying. 30 new people match the criteria for your search because a 30 new people are gonna be qualifying in this area or making a move into the area or starting to train every week or how, or whatever period. So it is incrementally growing, but it is, yeah, obvious that if you're working in a micro niche over a period of time, it is gonna become harder to, to find more people. I just see that as the challenge and, and really exciting. Do you ever feel like you're gonna have. You'll get to a point where you're educating people who potentially aren't in this area yet, as to the advantages of it. So IE you are kind of teeing people up to then go work with John Bonds. I'm not saying that you work with Yes. I actually already had that happen. Okay. Somebody listened to my podcast, then became a massage therapist, then went and got the training with John. Oh my goodness. That's a six figure business. Wow. Yeah. What a case study for you. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so that's awesome. And more and more people are joining my program with the right as they are starting to take training with John. So they're doing it at the same time. So they're really collapsing the time between. Being able to sell and talk about Myofascia release and make money in their business right from the beginning, which is super exciting and very powerful, I imagine for John and his team as well. Because if they can, you know, the more evidence there is that training in this area, does pay dividends, does provide return on investment and the, you know, the, the cost that you put into that qualification will be returned if you apply stuff. Yeah. I mean, I hope they see it that way. I don't work for John. No, no. Or affiliation, so I don't really know what they think about what I do. I just know I'm so convicted in this, I almost, it doesn't really matter because I know what I'm doing is helping people. So, and you, but you all rise together is what I'm saying. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes. And yeah, there's, there's nobody who really doesn't benefit. So, and you wrote two books before your audience fully knew you, which I'm fascinated about and you've also really. 300 weekly podcasts without missing a week. What, what prompted you to write the books and how do you think those assets have accelerated trust for your business? I think, so I wrote my first book before I had ever coached anyone, and my coach at the time was just just write down everything you know about having a myofascia release business. Mm-hmm. And that is how my book came to be. And I'm one of those people that once I have an assignment and I can focus on that, I will just, I will just get it done, which is, yeah, one of my superpowers. So I wrote that book, got it out. I sent it to John actually, and John made a post on Facebook about it, posted it his Facebook group, which was awesome. And then for a long time they, they sold the book as well at their seminars. So that was very helpful in getting the book into the hands of the people that I wanted it to be in. And it also helped set the stage to become an authority in the practice that I now have. Yeah. and then the podcast was born shortly after that. And I just really just talk about all of, all of the things, all of the mistakes I made as a business owner so people can avoid those mistakes and. I guess it's kind of the same things over and over again, but so far I haven't run outta anything to talk about. And I think, when we're working with clients to, I mean, this is the Authority Builder podcast and many of the clients that we work with beyond getting visibility systems set up using LinkedIn, which is something I mentioned already, is around helping them to create authority platform for many clients that is either a podcast or writing a book. both of which I have, and both of which nobody gave me permission to go do. I just went and did it. Yeah. And, and it, that's the best. Yeah. And it's, it's worked really well because, I think. For the, what was I gonna say? I think the thing is, is it, a big part of this isn't so much you have to be the definitive expert in your area, which, I work in a very niche niche in terms of my background as well, marketing for design agencies of a specific size and a specific area it. There are a handful of us in the world who've done that. Mm-hmm. it has expanded out more now, but I think it's, it's less about that. It's more about, it's not so much about having the permission to go do it. I think it's more about the fact that the recognition that if somebody's gonna invest in something, then they need to get to, they need to move through that know, look and trust process over a period of time. It's, these are not decisions that people make just because they see an ad or just because Right. They realize that you exist or you send them a LinkedIn message or whatever it is. You need to build, a connection with them over a period of time. And I do not find. Any better ways to do that than, well, number one, we're a culture of biblio files. we cannot throw books in the bin. even if you don't want it anymore, you take it to charity. Right. We have respect for books. If you are an author and you've written a book, then it's you. There is a, a, even if you self-publish, which I do you Yeah, I do too. It, I don't wanna wait for someone else to tell me something's good or not. I think it's good enough. Let's just get it out. Absolutely. Absolutely no way. I'm not, Waiting for any more permission around that, but I well, I know I was gonna go down another rabbit war room with, that was something my daughter said the other day. They're, they're learning about writing in English. It's all a bit meta. Oh yes. She's seven. And, and she was like, yes, we learned about books and we talked about the blurb. And I was like, oh, do you wanna see Mommy's book and look at the blurb? And she was like, mommy wrote a book. And I was like, yes. Dedicated to you on the, on the front page. and she was just blown away by it. So that was That's so cool. It was an incredible feeling. And she was like, mommy wants in it. And I was like, it's really fucking boring. Well, the thing is that's around forever. Yeah, I know, right? It has an ISBN number. There's a copy of it in the British Library. It feels good. Anyhow, that's, that's a whole other thing. But the, so the, the fact that it's in print and that we are, we do have this culture of biblia where we just, we have so much respect for things that are in print and have a cover on it. It's so funny because it could be the same stuff that's in A PDF that you send out as a lead magnet and just'cause it's on somebody's desktop, they don't feel the same way as if it's physically on their desk. And, that's just a mindset shift that I think people don't appreciate the power of and why you should consider lengthening something and publishing it as a book rather than, just having it in a, a lean magnet kind of PDF format. Um, but the other thing is, webinar format or whatever it is, if you've done a an hour and a half long webinar, that's a book. do you know what I mean? I never thought about that, but yeah. Oh my gosh. I have so many books. Yeah, yeah, exactly. you just gotta go get the transcription of all those and edit them. Yeah, the podcast. I guess we could do the transcription and make those books too. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the really common things that I, I've seen historically is people take, or, back in the day when we, everybody used to write blog posts and that was the primary way of sharing things is take all the blog posts and edit them down into a compilation that becomes a book. if you've got a. You have a book basically. Yeah. It's just a, another format of it. But yeah, absolutely. Podcasts have been another way to do that. And actually it's a big way that, so I, I was gonna say podcast, I think works so well. And you've just mentioned it's not even necessarily, I know it is about the content, but it's not even necessarily about talking about unique topics you've said. I feel I'm saying the same things over and over again. Yeah. It's not that, it's, people need to hear your voice and to go through that know, like, and trust process. Mm-hmm. To me, the hearing your voice is a huge accelerator of that because they feel like they know you if you've been through that. And and yeah, and I just think it almost, not that it doesn't matter what you're saying, but it doesn't matter if you're repeating things. And actually in many ways, that helps because what is the statistic now? We're all so attention deprived. It used to be you used to have to see an ad eight times before you registered it. I think it's something 10 times that now. Yeah. In order it's a lot. It's a lot. So Repeating yourself. You may be driving yourself nuts and feel like a stuck record, but the chances are you've not said it enough for the people who need to hear it. but I, God, my computer's telling me I'm on a monologue. There was something else I wanna say, which was, I think one of the fastest ways to write a book, and this is, you know, and something we do with our clients is we prep a lot of questions, and then we have several interviews over Zoom, and then we use the transcript as the first draft. And it's so efficient, but also it's so human because the words you use when you talk, when you present, when you speak in a podcast are just so much more you and your authenticity and your personality and all the things that mm-hmm. Beyond what your, expertise are. All the other things that make you. relatable and kind of, things that people want to buy into, kind of shine through because there are two levels. We don't just wanna work with the expert. We wanna work with the expert that we're actually gonna respect and and hopefully get on with if we're working one-to-one. You need to have that kind of chemistry in order for it to, to have an effect within your business. So, yeah. Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on that, but I'm so glad you've done both of those things. That's absolutely incredible. thank you. And I was gonna say too, you know, when I wrote my first book, I didn't, I just wrote it to get the information out there. Yeah. I had no idea what I was creating from that. And then when I wrote my second book, which came out this past July, it was much more intentional as a lead magnet, you know, with here's here are all the things that I offer.'cause I didn't have anything to really drive people to last time it was just. Getting, getting the book out, which is fine and people still buy that book, but this new one is much more intentional for listen to my podcast, come to this webinar that I have. here's a discount if you decide to join. My programs. Much more driven towards what I want people to take action on. And those are the kinds of things that I just didn't know what I didn't know when I was starting out. And it's also okay. Oh yeah. Also you can make another edition, right? Yeah. I mean that's what it started out as. I was re gonna rewrite my first book, but it just turned into something else. So what, tell me, what was the title of the first book and what's the title of the second one? The title of the first book is How to Have Your Own Myofascia Release Business. The MFR Coaches Guide to How to Have Your Own Myofascia Release Business. And Your practice Starts Here, get fully booked, raise your rates and build the business you actually want. So interestingly, you don't talk about MFR in that second title. No. Ooh. But then I guess it's about placement. And that kind of brings me onto my next question, which is, I know you are. I don't think the word is hustler, but you are so good at taking the opportunities. when we talked through this in advance, I was I was getting real. So Blakely vibes, when she set up Spanx and was doing, doing all of the things slightly differently and just not worrying about what people saw and just, doing it Anyhow. Yeah, she was modeling those around. I mean, I just, oh, I think she's just absolutely fabulous. but what has been the unexpected upside of seeding your books at seminars, even if it was at cost and mm-hmm. Letting authority compound. Yeah, I think it is. Well, one way I really saw it was in 2024, I injured my back really bad and I basically sat out for a year. I was still coaching, I was still selling my programs, but I was not going to seminars, which is every month M FFR seminars and this was a big, I'm gonna get onto it. This is a big part of the way you grew your business, right? Yeah. Was going to seminars, continuing to be act as a therapist with the therapist so that I can really be boots on the ground, what's going on in these businesses. What are the main problems these people are having?'cause they talk about it when they're around their colleagues, right? Yeah. So I sat out for over a year. I had to have back surgery, da da da. had all the things, So, but I didn't have a dip in my income, which was great. So that compounding of going to those seminars when I did and continuing the podcast and having that book sell itself at seminars and PE and if it's sold out at seminars, people just buy it on Amazon. Like everybody knows it's there. So, but how that took care of me, it was, sorry to interrupt. It was at the seminars, but you weren't there. So how were you doing that? Were you getting what, how were they just available? Were you sponsoring the event so you could give them No, so these are just trainings. I just pay to go as a therapist and I just take it as a class. But I wear a T-shirt that says the MFR coach and has my name on it. And then most people that join my programs love it so much that they just organically wear the t-shirts to the seminars and then people ask them about that. I mean, this is proper Spanx stuff, right? It is. Yeah, it is. Well, you know, I wanna, I want an election in college for student government in the same way. My grandparents owned a t-shirt shop and I ran for vice president of the student body of my junior year of college and I won. And I was just Not, not a popular person. I was a social work degree, you know, and my grandparents made all these t-shirts for me that had my head on it and my name, and it's vote for me. Yeah. And I won. And so I've kind of always used that. I'm using that strategy guys do not underappreciate the value that people put on the swag. yeah, I send a t-shirt to every single person and if they outgrow their t-shirt or something happens to it, you bet. I'm sending them another one. And we just had, it's so smart designs. It's so smart. I love it. yeah, I also, the bri in me is slightly, oh my God, I could never do that. I'd be too embarrassed to do it, but it's super embarrassing. funny part is I walk into these seminars and. people now recognize me because they listen to the podcast or they have the book, or they've seen me, they've come to a webinar and so, and I don't know them. Yeah, more I knew everybody that was joining my programs'cause I'd been to so many seminars. So it is a little bit it's, it's tough for me on my nervous system to do these things and it's embarrassing, but I just make myself do it anyway. I, I, I think it's a wonderful thing. I mean, look, I, I, you, somebody listening to this, probably thinking, she's called podcast and she's written her own book and she didn't self-declared that she didn't wait for permission. But I, I will not celebrate my own birthday. I hate things where the attention is on me. This is different because it's work and it's kind of, and I, I think that, there's. I know because people tell me there's value that people get from these conversations. That is it. It, mm-hmm. It's not the Charlotte show. It's not about me, but there's, when I hear stories like this, I'm so proud. I'm so, I just think it's so incredible. the impact that it has is so obvious to me as a marketer. And, and one of the reasons that I went into marketing was because I was such a sucker for all these things, the free things and the branding and the, I remember kind of similar story, somebody I used to have a crush on at school when I was 11, he went for something similar like student council. But you know, when we were like, it was like a, an election, but I can't remember what specifically it was for, and. He realized he's a very, very smart guy and has an incredible job now. But he realized at the time he was like, okay, people, it's just a popularity contest and you can win that with free stuff. So he went to the local, really, really cheap supermarket and he bought, like 200 bars of, lard. I dunno if that translates in the us Do you know what I mean by lard? It's like pure fats. Yeah. And it's sold in like a block, like butter. And at the time, and this is showing my age, it was like two pence per, so like 4 cents per, block. And he spent like less than 10 pounds or whatever, all this lard. And then for everybody who voted for him, he gave them a, a block of lard. And we were like, what is that? Like something people really appreciate. No, it was just what free stuff. We were just 11 and we, we were like, oh, there's no advantage to voting for you'cause you're not gonna gimme anything, but I'm gonna get lard from you. And then it turned out to be a complete disaster because. Everybody decided to, to throw the lard at the school building. And then the, the teachers were clearly furious because then there was just like 200 sp SLS of grease over this 200 year old building. It was a very kind of old and prestigious school. And, but he still won. And I just, that really sticks in my head as this incredible marketing lesson is do not un under appreciate Yeah. Just how, like the impact of a freebie. yeah. And there's lots of ways in which dictators abuse that. Yeah. But anyhow, like, let's not get into politics. Right? Yeah. So anyhow, just then thinking about your, I know, I was gonna say word of mouth that scales and the MFR coaches, I really have to see a photo of one of those. But, how do you turn that enthusiasm into more structured referrals? Because I know you mentioned that you, with your new book, you have an affiliate program. Is that right? That's right. We are running. A pretty great affiliate program. Right now it's just getting off the ground, so I don't have a lot of statistics or anything to share about it yet. But what I've done with my book is I've allowed people to sign up to be an affiliate. Then I send them copies of the book for free, and then they go to seminars, usually ones that I'm not gonna be yet and they distribute the book for me. That's so smart. Yeah. And they just give it away and then they get a dis, they're able to give a discount code away to the person that would join the program. But either way, they get a free book, they get this discount code, they get invited to the webinar, and then if they happen to join, the affiliate gets, their payout no matter what. Even if they join on a different discount or even if they join some other way, if they use that coupon code, they're gonna get the credit for it. So we made it really simple to get paid. And what, how are you tracking that? Because that's really analog and long haul, I imagine. Mm-hmm. It's not like you can just share out a Thrive Cart affiliate code. I know. So thrivecart? Yes. Airtable. Yes. And then a lot of it's manual. I mean, this isn't like so big that we can, between me and my OB and we can't track things. But yeah, people will sign up in thrivecart. Then it creates an automation with, with Airtable, and then I'm alerted that people need books and I get on Amazon and I send them author copies, which is a discount for me to do. It's still a kind of, it's still a little bit of a cost investment. Oh no, it's so cheap. It's cheap, but it's, so, yeah, it's pretty cheap. I also had postcards made up so that I personally mail them a stack of postcards that have, another version of the affiliate program on it. So if they run out of books, they could do the postcard or they could do both. so we tried to set'em up with lots of supplies, and then I just did an affiliate training with them. We have an affiliate page on the website that they could go to to watch that training and to get more information to order their books, all of that. So, and I guess then they're just generating their own code, I don't know, CSE 20. It's like their name. It's their first name and their last initial, so Oh, okay. It's not hard. My goodness. This is amazing. So smart. And, I'm now gonna go, my brain is wearing, well, I think about how I can apply this, but you can do it too. I mean, I'm, I love that people, people are already wearing my t-shirts, without me asking them. I'm just Hey, wear your t-shirt and take a group photo and send it to me. And I really haven't been doing anything with those. But as part of this affiliate training, I was Hey, why don't you take a selfie in your t-shirt and share it to social media and share how this program has helped you. Yeah. And then for anyone, any other of your friend,'cause their whole audience is MF father, MFR therapists. That's just, we just have a ton following each other. I'm let give them your code. It doesn't hurt. They may join the program based on what you just talked about. So smart. Ugh, I'm so excited to get into your business and and, and see how you can accelerate those things on LinkedIn. I'm just I'm, my brain is worrying and I'm thinking about what we can do with it, but that's, yeah, I'm excited too. I'm let's do it. I wanna, yeah, absolutely. Let's do it. I also, which is really funny because I'm actually very introvert. I'm a very introverted person, so all of this stuff, I make it sound easy'cause I'm talking about business, but when I go to execute this stuff, it, it, it takes a lot for me to do it. Well, talk to me about that, because I've literally just been working with, a friend that I'm doing some coaching with, and it, it's a guy and he's, very British and we share a lot of kinda rejection, sensitivity dysphoria and Yeah. how dare you, you're too big for your boots. lack of boundaries and definition between where the business ends and where self starts. So it becomes really hard to market the business because. It feels like you are shouting about yourself. Mm-hmm. So talk to me a bit about that.'cause it does not sound like you are, and I, of course, I believe you because I, I, I see this discrepancy in myself as well, but yeah. How can you describe how you work through that? So sometimes I just have a lot of anticipation for I'm going to a seminar this weekend. Hmm. So I've been having anticipation for, for feeling rejected or feeling left out or even, I have worries that I'll be kicked out or they won't like that I'm there. you know, for whatever reason, even though I don't, I'm not making a scene while I'm there or interrupting the class to sell my product. I just let it passively sell. You know, you've got no evidence that that would happen neither. Right. I mean, I don't, nobody's ever told me that they would, but this is just my own thoughts. Yeah, yeah. No, completely get it. Yeah. I'm just trying to prove the fact that it's not logical. Yeah, it's not. And, and the other thing is, is I tell myself, this is how I walk through it. I get mad about it first, then I get mad at everybody in my audience, and I realize I'm mad at everybody in my audience. But really the problem is, is that I'm just having anticipatory anxiety about something that may or may not ever happen. Yeah. So then I tell myself, that's probably not gonna happen. And then the other step to that is so what? Okay, I get kicked out oh. I must really be disrupting the industry if that happens. And I could write a book about it, I could do 20 podcast episodes on it. it could give me so much content for years and years and years. it's not, no one person can make or break my business. I don't rely on going to these seminars to create, I'm too big for that to be a stumbling block, if that makes sense. I have to really tell myself the truth and that probably feel, that probably sounds very cocky, but in my business, I really do trust and believe that my body of work speaks for itself. And people that know me and the people that are making six figures from working with me as MFR therapists, they know there's enough of them that know the deal that no, nothing can go wrong. And if something does go wrong, I'll know what to do. I'll cross that bridge when I get there, I guess. Yes, but again. I mean, I, I don't really even think that's a thing, right. I think what the, yeah, but I think it's just, it's all my brain chatter and I know how to talk myself to the ledge and talk myself back from the ledge. And I think it's what makes me a good coach is I have all those fears and anxieties and I still put myself in harm's way every day. I risk rejection and all that stuff. I go first. I, I have to constantly be doing that in order to make it safe for me to tell other people to do it. Oh, absolutely. If you don't walk the walk, nobody's gonna listen. Yeah. Mm-hmm. there is a phrase that I really love that I feel like I've said so many times this week. I dunno why it's been a big theme this week, but everything you want is on the other side of fear and this kind of idea of you just, you have feel the fear and do it anyway. In the name of that really old book that I read when I was about 11 years old. But yeah. I think, you know, what you're describing, I, I think is. Especially when we're in small businesses or solo business owners. And the person I was describing just before, he's the owner of a, five person business. So, you know, it's, it's not just him, but it's relatively small. And I think having, being able to get objective perspective on the business when it is that size and it's ostensibly the you show is really, really hard and you, you are always gonna sway to wherever. it feels quite bipolar because there are days where you'd be come I'm fire. And there's other days where you think, who am I? who do I think, yeah, nobody wants to, wants this. Why am I even doing it? Yeah. And it's, and it's, it's so, it, it, it requires so much energy just to navigate those that up and down of mindset or whatever you want to call it. I, I find that that is the most exhausting part of being in business. Is keeping that in check. And the way I described it to him earlier is okay, does this business need to, does this need to work? And he was like, it can't not work. I've got a mortgage to pay. I've got two kids, I've got, you know, and and then I was like, well, okay, so if you, if this was a publicly traded company and you had a fiduciary responsibility to your shareholders to market to get more clients. Would you do it? And he was like, well, yeah, of course, because I'm on the line for it. Then it's like, well how is this any different? You've got, yeah, you're on the line responsibility. You are the, you are the director of the company. You are the primary shareholder. Like it's not your name on, you know, I, it's like moving into that mindset and I feel like, you know, when I did my MBA, you learning all about how a public com publicly traded company is structured and about the different kinds of shares. I think I often think back to that when I'm having resistance around marketing my own business or I'm trying to talk clients through doing the same thing.'cause just'cause I tell them to do it doesn't mean I don't struggle with it. Just'cause you've described. Yeah. and I think just that shift in perspective, like that model, that publicly traded business model and the fiduciary responsibility almost feels like a way for me to get outta the subjective thinking and into the objective and looking down on my business and, and being more. Like thinking what is the smart thing to do? And sometimes it's gonna be putting t-shirts on people. And Yeah. Sometimes it's gonna be running paid ads that have your face on, which you may not feel super comfortable with. Which I'm currently doing. Yeah. And every time a friend sends me a screenshot of it, I'm like, oh. Like I, thanks, why do you hate me so much? Why would you share this with me? And normally they're like, this is amazing. It's the first time I've seen it. They're, and I'm, oh, algorithm, why are you punishing me? Like, I know. I like to think of when those things happen is like, those people are rooting for you so hard. Yes. You know, they, they're so proud of you. That's the same thing when someone shares something with me. It's almost really hard to receive a compliment. Oh. But I just do my best sometimes compliments feel ter. It feels terrible to have someone tell you that they helped you, which is so weird. But also never stop telling me because. I need to hear it just as much as I don't want to hear it, but I need to, to keep going'cause that's why I'm doing this. So, yeah. Oh yeah. And there in lies a whole of the kind of worms around Yeah. People pleasing and motivation. Oh my gosh. Yeah. The people pleasing. This is the thing though, right? Like, why can we, why do we keep doing what we're doing even when we're uncomfortable? When there's not that, that extra source telling you, you have to do it. Like the publicly traded company, right? Where there's not someone monitoring what you do.'cause a lot of people don't, a lot of people won't. Right? Or they'll start stop, start, stop. Like, how do you keep going? And I think a lot of it is personality, honestly. And having systems in place and knowing, remembering why you're doing it. Remembering why. Yeah. Yeah. I think I, yeah, I don't think there's one single answer to that. I'm just a dozen things are running through my head about how you continue to do that. And, I think, in, when it comes down to it, it's the difference between the people who, and this, this is no, no shade on it, but the people who are employed and the people who are employers and Yeah. you've got friends in my life or say, oh, you're so lucky you get to go on the school trip with your kid, or, you're so lucky you get to, you go to the 9:00 AM sauna down the road. and then we got a community sauna that I'm a big fan of with ice tubs and things, and That sounds awesome. Yeah, it's so great and it's, it's been amazing for serotonin levels and getting through winter and when it's dark and, all kinds of stuff. Yeah. And also the community aspect, but, well, yeah, you, you think it's awesome when I get to do those things. But what you don't see is I don't get sick pay, I don't get holiday pay, I don't get, I don't get maternity pay. Like there's, yeah. You know, and it's, are you. Do you have the risk tolerance for that? And I think it's kind of within the same kind of realms as that. My granddad used to tell a really great story. He was, he was a milkman, very, very working class. And in summer he'd have finished his work by 9:00 AM you know, he, he'd go on his milk float, I dunno if this exists where you live, but doesn't really exist here anymore to be honest. He'd go round delivering milk on his milk float. He'd set off at 3:00 AM and he'd be back by 9:00 AM and then he'd be lying out in the garden sunbathing at the time that his next door neighbor was going to his office job. And his, next door neighbor would always say, oh, Morris, you've got the best job. Like, look at you. And my grand used to say to him, you never say that to me in January, because it's so hard to do that job in January and be, you know, be up at the crack of dawn when it's well below freezing and to be dealing with icy roads and all of the other stuff. And then I'm not getting to lay out in the garden. And, and I think it's a bit like that. It's, You gotta deal with the Januarys and the Augusts, right? Yeah. And it's like the difference between the personality type that's willing to do that and is in it for the reward, the potential reward, and the one that just isn't willing to take on that risk. yeah. Somebody said to me the other day, they were, we were talking about, somebody who's coming on the podcast and they were talking about being in business and how if you're still in business at the 10 year mark, that's a huge success. And I never really thought about it like that before. I've like seen all the statistics around how many new businesses fail within the first three years and all of these things. Mm-hmm. But all of a sudden I was like, yeah, that you, there were so many signs of success around you that if you are willing to look for them. Yeah. Holding them in balance with your ambition and focusing on your goals and getting there. Because if you are that kind of person, then you're not very good at reflecting on what you have achieved and saying, well done. And all of those, yeah. Anyhow, I'm just ranting on now. But it, there's just so much stuff there that I think is so interesting and yeah. Very, very interesting. Mm. But I do like that idea though, of pausing and I, I think this is something that helps me. So I'll just bring it up, but pausing along the way to reflect on what you, what I've created, what you've created and taking a little pause just to smile about it or feel, feel good about it because, five minutes from now I'm gonna read something that's gonna. Tick me off for the day, so, or make me feel bad or make me feel like everything is burning down. But just taking those pauses and being like, you know what? This is great. Or I hit this mile marker in revenue. This is, this is great. And it doesn't mean I have to continually repeat it in order to be successful. It's just like, no, you hit this. This is good. You get to just enjoy it. It's not about what's next all the time, because I think we can tend to be what's next? What's next? What's next? What am I doing next? And I, I saw a statistic earlier about how much more quickly we forget. Compliments and successes than anything negative. And a big part of this for me is taking screenshots of things that are a marker of success To me, it's not necessarily what would look like success from somebody, somebody externally looking in, but I put them all in a folder on my desktop called good stuff. And then on days where I'm filling, I go through it. Yeah. But I also, I'm so British, but we've had a really fantastic month in this business, which I'm so grateful for. I'm in a coaching program, that I joined when things weren't as on the earth as they are right now. And there's a, a wins and celebrations channel in Slack. And today we got a client, we want a client that I've really been hoping to work with. I was like, I was gonna add it in the winners and celebrations thing. And I was like, no, you're too obnoxious. You've been posting in here too much recently. Like, this is what I told myself. And I was like, yeah, this is literally my sales coach. I mean, she wants to hear this for sure. Let me tell you. And, and it is so interesting that I was like, what is going on with my brain? I'm just gonna park that and go think about it later rather than take action on it right now. But yeah. yeah. I, oh my goodness. Yeah. Too much. But anyhow, I think we have to practice too, like being too much and like doing it anyway. Like when we have the idea that we are being too much Yeah. Be, be more and yeah, say it louder because it normalizes it in our body. Like it just normalizes it and it normalizes it for other people that would've never had the audacity to post about their win because they wouldn't allow themselves to. So yeah, being a good role model. Dusty, such a good word. That was always really negative to me until Barer incorporated it into the title of his books, and then I was like, oh, okay. It can be a positive thing as well. but yeah, that's, it's so true. I just, oh, I had a couple of other thoughts, Heather. Then as you were talking, it was I feel oh, there's one quote that I really love, which is, and I've definitely said it here before, but booze come from the cheap seats. Yeah. And I just think that's so smart. anybody, and then there's an extension of that quote, which is, anybody who is successful will be looking at you, and it's not necessarily financially successful in business or whatever else, but at the other end of that process, we'll be looking at you and being fucking a, that took a lot. That was really hard. And it's a very small step on the way, but well done you. Whereas the people who are likely to criticize are the ones who have insecurity, have challenges in that area, aren't willing to take to, you know, to feel the fear and do it anyway. And yeah. Yeah, I don't know, how you feel about this, but one of the things that impacted me most when I became a mother was reading, it was probably Dr. Becky or somebody, but somebody pointed out the very much scientific fact that children, learned from behavior that's modeled rather than spoken. And so even if you don't feel like you can do this for yourself, I feel like since having a daughter, mm-hmm. There are lots of aspects in which I'm like, oh, I can't just talk about it. Kind of like you said before, you have to do it before you tell your clients to do it. I can't just talk about it. I actually have to do this. I have to walk this so she can see that it's possible and that this is normal. And, and I, yeah, I think that's really important to know. And Sophie, that's how she gets to read a dedication to her in a book that you wrote, right? Oh yeah. That gives me so many goosebumps. I love, I love that. I did too. I had my son, my middle son is in college now and we're really close and it's been just hard not having him around'cause I just enjoy his presence so much. But he texted me the other day and he is oh, he joined a fraternity and they had a guest speaker coming. He is like, guess what? I'm gonna meet in person, the second millionaire I've ever met before. And I was like, well, who's the other one? And he is like, you are? Oh. And I that's not like a way that I identify myself, but like he's been with me on this path and like I continually celebrated every time I had a sale all the way up until a million and like, I should probably start celebrating that again. You know, like it was just, yeah. Yeah. And he was watching Heather. That's absolutely incredible, isn't it? Oh my God. The stuff that they remember is crazy. Yeah. Um, yeah, I just, so If anybody's listening in and like, I couldn't do that. The audacity, the whatever else. Like if you have a kid, think about the modeling and what you are doing and Yeah, and just making it normal. Like I was making that so normal to make that money. I mean it wasn't normal, but it was like normal life to a certain point. Yeah. I was just doing it all the time. I just remember every time I had a sale I'd be like, and now I met this much and you know, yes. This is so funny. I kinda look back at myself like, what a nerd. But also when he said that to me, like it made me feel so much, I don't know, like pride or just, um, I'm so happy I did it that way because it had an impact on him, even if I felt funny doing it how I was funny. Well, and it's so interesting, like I realize as an adult now that I am definitely an experienced learner and not a book learner, and that is not in school and in an academic school in the 1990s that was. Not necessarily seen as the the correct form of intelligence. Right? But what I do know is if I experience something, which is the same thing we're talking about in terms of modeling, then you're much more likely to remember it and be able to implement it. Yeah. And as you were talking, I was just thinking I dunno if my shareholder kind of analogy came across, but your son is the shareholder and you had a fiduciary responsibility to him to demonstrate what being a female entrepreneur, what being a working mum looked like, what, showing up in both of those facets. And so guys, if you can't do it for yourself. Do it for the shareholders, whether they be Yeah, figure out who they're and do it for them. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man, I love that. That is just, that is absolutely magical. Oh, I hope you, cherish that memory of him saying that.'cause that's, it was nice to kind of relive that just now, so. Very cool. Oh, so, oh my goodness. I feel we look, Heather, we're at time and we've covered so much. Do you how are you on time? I had a few more questions, but I also don't wanna talk. I am good for the next 10 minutes. Okay, cool. yeah. Brilliant. Me too. Just double checked. Okay, cool. So we have talked so much about authority and kind of the start of the process, but can you talk to me a bit about, because I, I really get a good sense of how you use your various authority platforms to bring people into your world. But can you talk about what, What it looks like in terms of email flows, time to conversion, for new subscribers, what, or people who've just come into your world. What does that first 90 days look like and how do you move people from say the podcast or the book to a webinar or whatever the next step is to a sale without fatigue? So I have a lot of automations and then a lot of trial and error. So we used to do every six to eight weeks I was launching a program. Then we moved to a 12 month platform where, people can just enroll anytime and I just went evergreen with that program. So we're doing a lot of testing, but right now they, they hear about me usually from the book or the podcast. They listen. Usually people will just binge the podcast. Then they find out that I've done that. I have webinars. So they join a webinar and then, the conversion time is. I'm not exactly sure of my numbers on the conversion time, but usually it's one to 90 days before somebody buys. But then I have people that have been watching me for years that are now starting to come into the program. Hmm. So I don't know what that says about me or about my confirm conversion rate or whatever, but I've made over a million dollars with less than 500 people on my email list. So whatever we're doing is working, even if it does take a little bit of time for people to actually buy. But people are really locked in on the podcast. Does that answer that question? Yeah. And I think it reinforces what we were saying earlier about, you know, the importance of. Hearing you and mm-hmm. Kind of having that kind of sense of relationship even before there's a relationship. Yeah. and I think as well as you were talking, it was the thing is people might be playing around with the idea of becoming a massage therapist and then exploring MFR and they might be at the very, very beginning of that journey when they first find you and know that that's their end goal, but they're just nowhere even near doing the first qualification yet. So it's, it's hard, isn't it? It's such a niche, niche that I think it's really hard to judge what is, a normal kind of time to conversion. Yeah. Unless you really got granular about analyzing where they were in their own kind of therapy journey when they first found you. Yeah, and we are kind of setting up the processes to be able to collect that data. I mean, I love using Airtable and really getting the data, and now we're getting the Google Analytics and the SEO and all of those things set up. So we've, so we can track that a lot better and speak to people better. But I've been doing this for five years without any of it, so I'm really excited to see what happens knowing that information. Absolutely. I mean, I, I go into a real. Tailspin about collecting data. A couple of years ago we, I bought an attribution software, which was such overkill for the stage of business we're at, literally the tele technology company we bought it from was are you sure? I don't think you're making a sales for this to be we normally work with. And then they listed off these big retail platforms. And I was like, no, I'm determined because I'm trying so many channels right now. I need to understand even if it's not about sale, but understand where have everything in place have the discipline in place. Mm-hmm. And it turns out it was way too early and, and now we're getting close to the stage where that would be useful in order to know where to put, to put investment. But the other thing is what I, I know, and I think, you know, for a lot of people listening in, they they have, a, a high value service and there's a lot of agencies here who only take on projects that are over 40,000 pounds, many of which. Hundreds of thousands of pounds into the millions of pounds. Like people do not decide necessarily even like in the first 90 days or even in a year, that they're gonna like appoint you as their provider in a certain area. Mm-hmm. And so I think unless you are committed to doing that kind of attribution over the really long term, it's it's kind of a bit fruitless sometimes and, and disappointing. Yeah. But yeah. Interesting. You're now getting to the stage, like over a million dollars and I have a team that can like, use their brain to set that stuff up because Mm. I think the value that I can add should be in creating the content and talking to the people and going to the seminars and, you know. Providing the answers to people and the support and that paid support. Not where did this person come in on the funnel. That's equally important, but it's not where like, I wanna spend my time. So, yeah. And did, how did you find that transition? Comfortable? Like, did you find it okay to relinquish responsibility and understand where you could bring the most value? Or is that something that you've kind of worked? I mean, I, this is a learning process. I am learning something new about being a business owner. About being a leader every day. Mm-hmm. I've had team turnover, like all of the things, right? And so I just think when we have a really good, I have a very good team right now that I feel 100% confident in assigning tasks. I have to know what to assign, right? So I have to take some time thinking about that. And then they're so good at execution. it's so freeing for me because then I can be more. Involved in being creative and doing, coming up with The webinar titles and the content and extra bonus trainings. I'm gonna get off this call and go do a bonus training on retention for my group and Just get to show up and do it. So it's fun. And that's so interesting because, actually my next question was around retention. You've, I know retention is something that you talk about as a growth engine and you've emphasized retention, particularly for your brick and mortar practice clients. What are the specific habits, scripts, or checkpoints that keep clients returning in your experience? For me, I think it's excellent customer service. So I don't just care about getting new customers. I wanna nurture the customers that I have and also make sure that they are getting the results. So we have trackers so we can see, people are making their money back in on average, within the first 90 days. And for people that aren't, I'm gonna reach out to them and find out why they're not. Some of them will engage with me and we'll be able to solve that problem. And some, some people just buy something with no intention of ever following through. So we definitely have those people, but it's being able to have those touchpoint with people. And I think that that can translate into people's myofascia release practices by knowing why they came to you in the first place, understanding their problem better than they do, and making sure that the client understands the process, is what I do in my business as well. And that creates the retention. they wanna stay with you because they understand what they're getting, what they're buying, and what the result of that is. So, people that are gonna buy with me again because they like the paid support, they've normalized that for themselves in the business, and it is worth it for them to not ever get stuck or struggle with a problem for too long because they know they can literally ask me anything and I'm going to provide the support that they paid for. They're not gonna, Post in the Facebook group and wait six to 10 business days for an answer because I'm too busy doing something else. Like I'm not too busy. I'm, I'm in there providing the support that I said that I was gonna provide for them. And how do you handle it? Do you, I mean, on a very practical level, do you do that through Facebook group or do you do it in Slack? Right now our groups are, private groups are on Facebook. It's what the platform we use. And then we've got weekly reports through Airtable where they can get private responses from me. And then we've got a weekly one, or not a one-on-one call, but a group call that I coach, they can raise their hand and get live coaching once a week on those. Very good. And you just mentioned live coaching. I know you certified through the life coach school. but you are also very direct and self savvy and I know that is the big part of a, a lot of what you're teaching the MFR therapists. So when do you coach mindset versus give step-by-step directives? When a client comes to you with challenges, is there a, something that is a marker. I think that it's all related. So sometimes I can tell somebody just they're there mindset wise and they just need me, they're just missing one piece of the puzzle. just say, just ask this question next time. So I will check in with their mindset and see how they feel about having the conversation, clean up anything that needs to be done there, and then just tell'em why don't you just try this sentence next time? Love it. Very practical. It's not that hard and you know, we make it hard, but it's, it's really not that hard. And so the other thing is, is sometimes there, well there's almost always mindset work that can be done, but sometimes the strategy will solve both. And sometimes not. Sometimes not, but. It's, it's a challenge knowing when to coach and also qualified coach and, and knowing when to just give practical direction On the thing that you need to do. But Anyhow, Heather, I'm really conscious of time and we've just had such, I got so excited about the area around authority and about continuing to show up and I guess imposter syndrome and working through it anyhow and, and feeling the fear and doing it anyway and all of that. But it's just been such a wonderful conversation. I'm so. Excited to work with you and also learn from, you know, how you've kind of used your business and, and leveraged your authority. really fascinating to talk to you. So thank you so much for joining us. Where should, who should get in contact with you and where should they find you? so if you are a Myas release therapist, wanna work with me, you can go to my website, the mfr coach.com, or where you could sign up and join one of my biweekly webinars by going to the mfr coach.com/webinar. And I'd love to see you on a webinar. Say hi. Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us, Heather. Speak soon.