Make It Weirder: Adam Graff on Art, Integrity, and Finding Clients Through Human Connection

Make It Weirder: Adam Graff on Art, Integrity, and Finding Clients Through Human Connection

In this episode, award-winning London illustrator and educator Adam Graff shares his journey from commercial illustration to a more authentic, personal practice. Adam discusses redefining success, moving away from the pressure of constant commissions, and embracing his unique, playful style—despite being told to “tone down the weirdness.” He delves into the power of creative collectives, specifically Hero of Switzerland, and how collaboration and community fuel his work.

Key topics include:

• The evolution of Adam’s definition of success and creative fulfilment
• Navigating rejection and the importance of resilience in the art world
• The value of human connection in finding clients and selling art
• The role of collectives in fostering creativity and ego-free collaboration
• Embracing authenticity, self-trust, and the inevitability of the creative journey

Adam’s story is a testament to the power of staying true to your voice, finding your people, and letting your weirdness shine. Find Adam’s work at @adamgraffart (or, as he jokes, @adamgrafffart).

Transcript

Audio Only - All Participants: 0:33

welcome to the Authority Builder podcast. Today I am joined by Adam Graff. He's a London based award-winning illustrator, educator, and a hero with, over 25 years 25 years of professional experience and having built a successful career in the advertising design and editorial and publishing sectors. Adam transitioned towards a more. Or serial practice embracing a personal and authentic approach to his art. Adam finds inspiration, the beautifully flawed, celebrating imperfection by channeling his inner child. He brings a playful energy to his image making. Infusing his work with a lively sense of fun humor and Jo De I can never pronounce that properly. Whereas Codi as co-director of Hero of Switzerland, he, which is an alternative illustration collective named after a peck and pub bra, the collect country directly, which I found out from asking really curious name. and I feel like I need to go visit that pub now. Adam collaborates on exhibitions industry projects. Live events and national art fairs founded in the early noughties. The collective shares a common goal to foster community through creativity, sharing ideas, and generating art that's fun, engaging, and meant to be shared with the world. So super long, intro to you, Adam, and I'm just so glad to join you today. We were just say, saying beforehand that, we could probably just keep chatting without ever hitting record and getting into the actual content. But thank you for joining me. Pleasure. Pleasure. So, I'm really interested in how you've redefined success as a creative and, and shifting from commercial kind of more resonant work. I know that you've made a deliberate shift from kind of commercial, the more commercial illustration work to a more meaningful self director practice that reflects who you are. So how has your definition of success changed since you first started in the late nineties? Oh, that's an interesting one. Yes. Well, it was semi-conscious actually, but I'll get onto that. I guess working professionally, success probably was measured by the amount of commissions you had. Mainly that, mainly that, and if people recognized your work, it's always nice, but I, I, and I had pretty con because I had a agent, a couple of agents in those early years. it was pretty constant. I was always working for either the broadsheet or some, you know, whatever they threw at me, really. I think success was, was about that not having a, not having a gap. Mm-hmm. but that's quite pressure, that's quite pressure driven. And then I think, and what I was referring to before, being less, not completely conscious shift, I, I got very tired of that. towards the end, I think I'd got typecast as, you, sort of backed into a corner working for, business magazines. I don't know quite how that happened. And they sort of say, what's in your photo is what you are really, is what you are continued to get. And I guess I had one piece and then I had another piece that was, business based. And then suddenly I was this business illustrator for marketing magazines and things like that. And I really hated it. I think that's what pushed me to, to make a very, that was a conscious decision to do something quite radical. and that took the form I toyed with a few different, ideas. and it ended up manifesting as taking time out to do an ma at St. Martin Martin's. That was my big shakeup. And it was there that, quite strangely that I realized that I had a, I had my own voice. Took all those years. How old were you then? Do you mind me asking? I was about in my late thirties. And what was the ma Uh, the ma was in communication design. Mm. With a specialism of illustration. It was the last year of the old building. So that sort of, dates it and, and, and I really as grateful that we were in the Southampton Road building. It's an amazing old, old art college full of, of years of history in the wars. You could feel it as you walked in. and it was there surprisingly that I, as I say, that I realized that I actually could make work, from. The things that I cared about from my point of view, my voice, because of course, when you're working commercially, it is not your voice. It's, it is a bit in the, in the way that you work, but obviously the content is someone else's, voice or someone else's point of view or someone else's ideas. and that was a bit of a revelation, a bit of an epiphany even, I would say. And so when I came out the other end of that, it was two years that, full time, which is quite strange for an ma. I couldn't really, my, my work had completely changed. And, and I, and I tried to sort of re-approach agents after that and say, right, okay, I'm ready now. I'm free now. No one wanted me.'cause I think my work could. F was probably had moved, felt more fine Art, I, I got a lot of that. Your work is too fine art, it's too, it's too personal, it's too emotional, it's too this and do that. So I was like, okay. but actually as time went on, I was kind of pleased that, that, that that was the case and, and that I didn't need to work commercially. I just found other outlets For making and doing work. Part of that was hero. Mm. So let's get into that. Can you tell me a bit about, because Hero is a creative collective Yeah. on, in brackets without the ego as you, I feel like you described it last time we spoke. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. It's a, it's, I dunno if that's still true, but it's lasted over 15 years and it's stayed fluid, inclusive and, and ego free. Which I know you, I said is, is quite a rare model in the illustration world. And like, I don't even like for the uninitiated, what is a creative collective? What does that mean? And and, and what is. Hero of Switzerland's Mo. Yeah. Well that's, I mean, I think that takes many forms. And when we, when when I joined, I, it wasn't started by me, it was started by Dan and, and two of his friends. Dan Button. Yeah. I came in, I think. Around about 2011, they invited me in and that was the model. That was what makes Hero unique. There were other, at the time, I remember there were other really cool, illustration collectives, like Brothers of the Stripe and a few others. I can't. Remember that was quite a time ago. we had a different model. it was more about, there wasn't a, a set structure of a set of people. There was a core, and they invited illustrators in. so it was really. And, and that's probably why I say without the ego, it was very fluid and very loose. So illustrators came in for, say, a project. So you invited in and that's how I, I came into the group. It was a project, called Heroes and Villains. Actually, that was the theme of the, of the, of the exhibition. It was in just off of, I think it was in Cheshire Street, just off Brick Lane in the east end of, of London. They contacted me outta the blue and said, this is the theme. Do you want to join? you know, do you wanna join us for this exhibition? I was like, yeah, absolutely. I'd love to. did a piece and at the vi and, and the vibe of that group, when I met them, was so, it was, it felt like, I remember saying, it felt like I'd come home. They were, they were, Easy to be around. Really fun, really stupid, really juvenile, just, you know, there was a resonance and it, it fitted perfectly. And, and I hung around. I mean, I just got invited. I think they, they must have felt the same. And, I got invited the next one, the next one, and then before I knew it, I was part of the team. The two other members, moved away from the group and it was me and Dan. And, and we keep that model where you, you know, whoever wants to. stay along for the ride for however long they're welcome. and it really attracts. So with each new project, we attract a whole new, load of illustrators, and creatives. It's lovely. And what is the goal of, of the collective? Because I don't feel like it's financially motivated. And you've talked about, like you come up with the idea and then find a place to like host it or sell it in, or you know, however you want to put it. But like, is it about camaraderie in, I mean, I'm aware when I speak to illustrators, they often describe, you know, they've pretty much been working on their own freelance since they leave university. So is it a, a place to have a space to work with other people and Yeah. Like what, can you describe, like what is, like, how does that take shape? Absolutely no. The reason I laugh is'cause I have this thing with Dan. He's so, he is so, not into, making money really. And I'm like, I do need to make money. This is much because he has another job. Yeah. he's a designer mainly. And I'm like, no, I need to make some money of this Dan as well as well, I mean, yes, we're in it for the fun and for the, and for the, you know, the interaction with not only illustrators and creatives. But the community, so we have this ongoing thing, and generally, no, it's not about making money, it's about, it's about the vibe really. We, we have, we have, so when we, it's usually there's a meeting between, Dan and I, and then there's another couple of guys that were always sort of on board, pretty much for most, most projects, if they're around. We usually have some sort of chat, informal in a pub or, and it used to be, in the heroes, in the hero of Switzerland, which was the pub you mentioned in Peckham. But I'm afraid you can't go'cause it's since been demolished Oh. In the last couple of years, which is really sad. Fantastic. so you lost your window there, but, It lives on through your collective. Yeah, it lives on Exactly, exactly. Lives through your collective. yeah, absolutely forever. and so we will band some ideas of, of, of projects maybe that we want to do, whether it be a show, whether it be, approaching a, a company or, or, you know, finding or, or something completely different. So something, something creatively unique. so we bash around ideas and then usually by the end of the evening. There is something on the table, something, something tangible that we can work with. And then, and then we float that out. there is a bit of a following, I guess with, with, the group. so we put that out on socials, say, does anybody who feels like joining us for this? and then, because there's, Various people within the group that can, take on different roles. If it is an exhibition, for example, then we will, separately look for a venue, a suitable venue. the last one we did actually was in Waltham Stone, the wind gallery in the park, which was just a really great, venue. Really lovely gallery and it was really reasonable, which is quite rare in London to, to, to hire a gallery. and the footfall was lovely. it was, I booked a, a, a slot for that and, and, and that all came together. And then of course, Dan's got some, he is a designer, so he's usually does the, the marketing material, which all, ties in. Mm. and I help out with that as well. Printing or designing or, so between us, we, we have different roles and it just, it just flows. So it'll be like, oh, can you do the poster? It's like, yeah, I'll do the poster. Or can you do, can you print some of this up? And yeah. And so it just kind of flows and, we just divvy out the separate jobs it work. I love work. I see Dan, describes here of Switzerland saying it all started when three creatively frustrated friends started drawing together. The drawings accumulated, they put on shows. The internet fell in love with their blogs. They met at the creatively frustrated friends, and they grew. And I know when we, talked, a few weeks ago, you talked, one of the other things I wanna touch on first of all is, is like, how are you balanced? Being financially viable as you kind of like noted, but also whilst being, creatively fulfilled. And when you went through this big shift with the kind of commercial work and after your, CSM experience, you, it sounds like the way you find clients for your own work beyond hero. Is very much based on the human connection. And I know a, a lot of your work still comes through in person shows and fairs and unexpected conversations. so why do you think that works so well? It's funny, yesterday I was, I was watching something. I watch a lot of stuff. It was about selling art and, and the guy was saying, there the best way to sell art. And I didn't, I didn't, have this, sort of consciously in my head. but, obviously I, it, it, it resonated. he said the best way to sell art is, is, is in person one-to-one. And, I agree with that. And obviously it's difficult to be one-to-one EE everywhere and you, so that usually happens in very specific places like an art fair. it's about connection and it's simply that, I think there's a. I find there's this invisible kind of energy that happens. I, I find it, I find it very interesting that you can being, you can have your workout in an art fair. 99 people will pass by and not even really look. and then that one person will go zoom in. It'll be like, ah, this is, this is, there's something here. And that person. It's, it's that invisible, connection. There's immediate connection with the work, and then there's an immediate connection with the person. and I love that because then that will turn into a conversation and the conversation will flow and it'll be easy because there's a natural connection. They love the work, and they, they, and, and it's, and that's, that's the joy I get from, from, from fares. Having that, connection with a like-minded person that just. They just get it. They just get the work. And obviously, you know, like with everything, especially with, with, in the art world, it's so subjective, but it's also to do with, the vibration of the work and, and, and whether it touches you. And it's not gonna touch everybody, but it will hopefully connect with one or two. Yeah. And I think I was, I was gonna ask you like how does it is, so a lot of the work that I do, is working with people who you don't like. Marketing. They don't like sales and they might be creatives, they might be another kind of service provider, but they, or sorry, another kind of, have another kind of offering like being a service provider, but they. They, they come because they want a strategy. They, the reality is strategy is probably like five to 10% of what they actually need. The rest of it is around mindset coaching, about just be showing up and not getting offended when people don't choose you. And continuing to show up and feel like you're saying things until you're blue in the face, because we've all got such horrific attention spans these days and, and being willing to. Like sometimes, like I had a really long conversation yesterday with a client about, he's got three really prolific artists in, the clients that he works with in his, in his business. And he gets on really well with them and gives'em a real white glove service. And they've, they've even offered to be ambassadors of his business. They love what he does so much. And I was like, okay, well we're gonna interview them. And here's a list of questions that I want you to ask them, and the output of that is like case study and marketing material. And it's like, oh no, I can't, I can't ask them that. But they've, they've told you how much they love you. They've even volunteered being an ambassador and it's like, oh, but what if they get like, what if they reject me? What if they, and I just think it's so hard, like even with the people who've already chosen you time and time again, fear that something's gonna go wrong. So the thought of being at an art for and standing in front of your own work and watching the people, 99 people pass before that one person kind of stops and talks to you is to me that is. Obviously your craft is what allows you to show up there in the first place, but your mindset has gotta be the thing that allows you to see, just as you so eloquently said, like creativity as an extension is about a lot. So much of it is about a vibration, right? And if you acknowledge, yes, art is very subjective, but objectively. The vibration is always true of us and creativity. So it's not personal. If somebody's not getting that, I just find it so fascinating, like it's so, I'm just, I've gone onto a bit of a monologue, I promise. I do have a question. Can you share the story of how, how one gallery owner singled you out at a fair and what happened next?'cause I know that we talked about this last time. Yeah. that's interesting. So I had, I mean, part of what you were saying before I was, that that's very interesting what you've just said. Part, part of what you said before is about, you know, getting used to rejection. I, I mean, I, I put a lot of stuff out and I ask a lot of people to collaborate. Again, you know, 99 of those are gonna say no or not even answer and you just, I suppose you just get used to it over the years. Yeah, yeah. I could have a book of rejection emails or letters. They used to be letters and now they're just say rejection emails. I could make a book of those. and you do get used to that. And, Like you said, it's not personal, but I it, but on another level, there is a, because your art is your person, you know, intertwined. And that's probably why, artists can be, be, hard hit by, by that. Or, or, or why, why it's. Feels like it hurts. Mm-hmm. because it is so personal. It's like a re personal rejection, but it's, it's not, you know, it's, it's like, it's like if you went into a room full of people, you are probably gonna connect with maybe one of those people in the room. And it's just the same thing. and the other people is not to say that you wouldn't like the other people, you probably do, but it's just one of those people. and you almost get drawn together without even knowing it. You just, it feels like magnets, doesn't it? Exactly. Exactly. So it is the same, it's the same with the work. It's the same, the vibration. yeah. And so with this, this, story that you're, that you are alluding to, so, I had approached. I'd been in a gallery in, I was visiting Brighton and I'd seen a gallery and I did this a lot. You know, if I see somewhere that I think, yeah, that, that there's something there. There's something that, Again, it's the same thing. It's, but, but it's the other way around. I'm feeling a vibration, a pull towards a particular space or a particular company or a particular like, oh yeah, I can really, there's something that connects this space or company with, with what I do or with what, with who I am. And it was a gallery and it was full of stuff that I just thought, oh yeah. I love that there's a real, there's a real vibe in here that I feel like I could. Be part of. And so of course I went home and immediately wrote to them and, and, and sent some work and, and said, yeah, I saw your gallery and I love this and I love it. And I think that my work fits basically. and as I said, I do that a lot with a lot of people. Most people don't answer. they didn't answer. How rude. well, as I say, I'm used to it. I'm used to it. And so I thought, okay, well, you know, they obviously don't feel the same as fine. it just so happened months later, maybe, maybe six months, maybe nine months later, I was doing an art fair in King's Cross and one of those gallery owners were actually, I don't think that she even meant to. To come to the office. She was going to, Waitrose on the other side of the, of the square. she was passed through and she was the one in the nine in the hundred that stopped at my stand. And she was like. I love this stuff. I said, thank you. And of course, there's a conversation as I was, explaining before and it was like, oh yeah, we have a gallery. And I was like, oh, yeah, where's a gallery? And then she said, it was in Brighton. I was like, oh, I think I know your gallery. And she told me the name, and I said, yeah, I wrote to you. And she was like, oh, did we not answer? I was like, no, but it's fine. I'm not offended. but she was like, oh. But I love it and I can see why, why you thought, and, And Yeah. And so I met them. she said, I'll go home and I'll find your email and we'll connect. And, and we have, and I, I mean, I didn't even believe that. I thought, oh, yeah, you know, sure, we'll connect. And, and I thought I wouldn't hear from'em again, but that wasn't the case. She did find my email, she did connect with me and, and we've. Since, and, I think I'm gonna be part of that new group of, they made this, they have, a gallery in Brighton, but also I think a new one in Kings Cross and I think, yeah. You mentioned in Mer Street market at Yeah. Gran Square. Yeah. A back of call drops yard rather. Exactly. There. I haven't seen it yet, because it was. Closed on the day that we met.'cause they did want to show me, but they, they, they've requested some pieces and I'm actually just wrapping, wrapping them up now. I had them printed last week. So, I'll go down there and, and we'll see where that leads, you know, it's a new, it's a new opening and that's, and that's comes out of just like you said before, just being there and. Doing your thing and showing your stuff. Yeah. making those connections. And also knowing, I think, super important, knowing that silence doesn't equate to rejection. And we are all, we are all, so, I mean, art and human connection within the attention economy is like an whole of the kettle of fish, isn't it? I think the, the same client that I just mentioned before, He, I was like, how many kind of illustrators do you approach directly? And he said, well, we normally email and then we don't hear anything back, so we don't do anything else. And I was like, do you know that previously, you know, when I was doing marketing degree at university, you have to, have. Seen or experienced a brand eight times to remember it. I just saw a new study that came out. It's now 80 times. So like I, I'm not saying you have to send 80 follow ups,'cause you may get reported to the police for stalking, but I, I do think, you know, there's a big lesson there and it's not necessarily all in email format or all in letter format or whatever it started in, but just a knowledge that it's, we, we all, I think especially as Brits, especially as. Created people. There is a, a big skew amongst us to rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is the professional term for, I've discovered recently. And just like what, like assuming the worst of what people think about us. Uh, in absence of any information. this is the reason why I get somebody else to do all my customer listing after somebody's finished working with me.'cause I just like, and overwhelmingly the feedback is positive, but I am. So scared in case I hear something negative, or that they won't be open, fully open with me. It needs to be an independent person. So I'm not saying I'm above this or better than this, and I, I just know that if you feel this and you are scared to follow up and you just assume it's rejection, that does not make you unusual. That makes you the norm. And there is, there's a lot of study around this and I think that combined with. How attention staffed we are right now is just this horrific com combination and it stops. So many people that I know who are super talented have amazing services, products, businesses. It stops them from marketing, which in my head is like the ultimate meeting of supply and demand. Like you meet in the marketplace, you say, I've got oranges, and someone says, I want oranges, and they come and get them. Like to me, that is what it is. You marketing is connecting. Service or product with the person who may not know they want it yet, but does want or need that. And if you don't do the bit in the middle of the marketing, the writing, the email to the gallery, the posting on social media or what, however, that shows up for you in your business then. It's unlikely that anything's gonna happen. Mm-hmm. So, you know, when you are describing the number of letters you send out or emails and you say, I don't often hear back from people, like, how many people would you hear back from if you didn't do any of those? Like send any of them out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and I, I always think at this point about Thomas Edison and like picking up some, he has some fabulous quotes around, Like failure. Yeah. Persistence and mm-hmm. Determination and, like mistakes. Yeah. Mistakes. Being positive. absolutely. Being your teacher, which is such a huge. Like atmosphere of around tech startups. It's one of the positive things about that environment. But I think within a creative environment where in, especially in like from a commercial background and like working, having worked in a graphic design and running agency, it has to be, everything has to be just so before it goes to the printers, right? Everything has to be just perfect. And so there is this fear of. Like just not getting to the end of it, not doing the thing. Because it has to be just said before you do the thing. And then it is a, sorry, I'm going on a monologue, but it's, it is like a vicious cycle and I just think so many of us are guilty of it and we think we're doing that in isolation, but I think it's criminal because you're robbing people of the opportunity of seeing and buying your work. I think. yeah, I see that. And I think, I think it's harder to make the connection. And again, it comes back to, I think, it's like until you make that human connection, however that, manifests or however that is, however that looks. You are just another, another email. and, and it's like a, and, and, and as you said, it's now, there's, there's way more of that calling for your attention. There's way more stuff that's calling for your attention. So it's almost like you are sort, you are a bit hidden. you are, you are a bit of a secret. That's how I see it. And that, until you. It's a, it is a bit like a, I dunno whether this would be a good analogy, but it's a bit like if you, if you advertise for a job and you get a hundred, cvs, really, in an ideal world, you'd see a hundred, those a hundred people or, or, or you'd see half of them. You'd narrow it down by half, by the way their CV looked, I guess not even what was on it, I guess by how it looked. And then you'd, but until you meet, someone, You have no idea. One of my first jobs, which was one of my, favorite, I wasn't, they called it in those days. visual merchandiser, which is basically window. A window. Hmm, yeah, yeah. in, in for bookstore, in, in those days. and we had free reign, and that's why it was so much fun. Just making rock. Sounds amazing. Oh my God, honestly. but I had no experience in that, on paper really. I, I, I hadn't really, But they did. I went up for interview and I got that job. And the reason why I got that job, they said, they said, I was like a, a puppy, very excitable puppy. They could see how much I wanted the job and, and they could feel my energy and, and creativity. And I got that job and I loved it, and I, you know, I would've stayed in there for longer if it wasn't so badly paid, but, yeah. But, I guess the point is, is about, it's about seeing and, and, and it's the same thing what I was talking before about the, that that vibration that connects people. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I can work with you. I'm so excited for this job. And, and then, and then it's just a natural, it's an, you know, and there might have been someone that had way, way better qualification than me, but I got it. Good for you. It sounds like a fabulous job. And I think on that note, there's there's a parallel here with something else we talked about beforehand. Your agent once told you to tone down the weirdness. How did that land at the time for you? more, more than once. and that probably came from, from a client, probably from one of those business publications. Yeah, exactly. And that was passed on. I remember thinking, there was a few things I thought, What do you mean? I didn't know I was being weird. and that's probably the thing. I was just being me and just being, you know, drawing as I draw, at the time, I think, In retrospect, it was quite a, it was quite a head, that sort of style. There was one other person called, I think, Andrew Ray, who was part of another collective. it's a very successful co collective. I can't remember what they were called now. but he drew a bit like me. I remember because we would go up for the same jobs, often, this really weird kooky style. So on one hand. And so I thought, well, if he's, if he's getting jobs or I'm getting jobs, then there must be something that, that the people are, are, are liking. and so again, it comes back to the same thing. It's like, well, if they're liking it, then it, then there's a connection between the type of job and you kind of weird style. And that's the sort of jobs that I want to be working for anyway. So, no, I'm not gonna tone that down. I don't think I said I'm not going to.'cause I usually have this policy of saying, yes I will, but then don't. I do that a lot in life? keeps people quiet. and I said, sure I will. but had no intention of doing that because I just think, well, if it's not. Then you shouldn't choose me if you, if, if my, if my language is too, is too weird for you, then don't choose me. Choose someone that's, and there was plenty at the time of, of quite what I call, similar work. it was fashionable at the time, wherever that was, but it was loads and loads of that. And then, and then my weird stuff. Yeah. Just go choose one of them, like Yeah, exactly. Go and choose one of them. There's loads of them. There's plenty of them. yeah. So I was gonna say, what do you think embracing your natural style and voice has opened up for you? And did that correlate with the, the ma? Like, do you feel like that?'cause when you talk about your natural style and, and voice. It feels like that was a big transformation for you. Do you think there's, like, was it happening beforehand when people encourage you to tone down the weirdness? no. No. In fairness, I think in that when I came to illustration, I had no idea it was even an industry. It was something that happened to me. I was working in an advertising agency actually, and it was the, it was the visualizers at the time in advertising agency, this all probably doesn't exist anymore. There was a room full of people that did drawings and they were called the visualizers, and I used to hang out with those guys'cause I. Again, that there was, there was a, an energy with those guys way more than I liked. The, the art directors who I thought were not cool. Although they thought they were really cool and that was part of the problem. I think they were very, quite big egos in, in, in advertising. And I hang out with those guys at lunchtime, et cetera, and they said, oh, I think I was one day, I took some sketchbooks in'cause I wanted to photocopy them or something like that. I was doing, working on a project for myself. And they saw it and they were like, wow, you could be an illustrator. And it was like, what is that? What's an illustrator? What really didn't know Potter. Yeah. Yeah. and they said, well, it's a job. It is a job. And I was like, oh. and that, that one message was, Pushed me into, I, I mean, the fact that I also got the sack from that job for something. and then on the other side of that it was like, well, then I'll be an illustrator. Mm. and that felt completely right. So, And I've been at that ever since. now I've forgotten the actual question. Well, I was, I was gonna ask,'cause these are all just kind of stories from a different stage in your career, but do you think that age and experience are necessary for that kind of self trust? That you need to stick with your gut and stick with your style? Or do you think younger artists can get their faster? Is there a shortcut, tellers, Adam? Never a shortcut. You like, can you gimme the secret? Don't trust shortcuts. I think, I think life, you're in it for the whole and you should enjoy the journey. And it is all a journey. And, and learn from the things that you know that, that happen along the way. Learn from those mistakes if they are mistakes. I personally believe there's no such thing as a mistake. It's all just meant to be as it's meant to be. You and Thomas Edison doesn't feel right. What's that? You and Thomas Edison. Oh really? Yeah. being authentic. I guess that something, first of all, knowing who you are, a big journey in itself. Mm-hmm. To know thyself, Messages from William Morris here in Walham Stone. So he's got a legacy in Walham Stone and I, that's one of my favorites is know thyself. I think that's, a life journey, knowing who you are and then connecting that with what work you make, what you are interested in, being authentic to just doing what's inside, what's important to you. And even if that important thing is very silly. Trusting that because most of my work is kind of on the surface, quite frivolous it seems. But actually it is who I am it's important to me and it's important to me to say it. And I guess, I think that comes with some mature maturity to be confident enough to say, this is who I am, this is what I, I make work about. And, It will connect with those who, who need it to connect to them or those who find it and those who, you know, that's a natural process. Yeah. You can't force that. It just is. So I prefer to, I now make work for me. it's authentic comes from directly from my heart. And, and like I say, hopefully it sort of connects with some people, the right people. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm just sat with, You can see there's a pine cone print behind me and then a bunch of pine cones. I, it is something so weird. Over the past few years, I just realized just how obsessed with pine trees I am. And then I saw, wouldn't say I cut a clock tail. I was like, oh, they're literally everywhere in my house. How did I not notice this sooner? Oh yeah, I do. monoprint and Lino cut and I, when every time I do a course it unintentionally, I always end up doing something pine themed and not even realizing why. And then looking up about the sim, the symbolism of the pine cone, and, knowledge and self-awareness and discovery, and I'm like, it, it doesn't seem like there is a lot of correlation unknowingly between things that are happening internally, mentally, things that, places that I appreciate. And, I, I dunno why I'm telling you all this. It's kind of. It, I'm bringing it back to a point, but I forget what you call them. Is it Phylaxis or something? I can never pronounce it. The, there's like a sense of the symmetry that you find in nature in repeating patterns like the golden Yeah, it's, it's an expression of the golden ratio. Ratio. Oh man, that's gonna really annoy me. I dunno what that I, I have a Pinterest board with all of it on, hang on. I'm just literally gonna look for it. That is, that does link then, completely to what we are saying. It links, you know, intrinsically to who you are and a part of you that's, you're just being authentic almost subconsciously. Yeah, but I totally understand that. Yeah. Phil Texas. And then I was like, is this weird because this chuffing. Pine cones everywhere in this joint. Like, if, if anyone comes over, I just like, and, and people know to bring me them back from places. Oh. And and then I was like, you know what, and, and this is the point I was gonna give, is like, I think, you know, self-discovery and there's, you know, the correlation back there, but also just like becoming older and having less energy, becoming a parent, having even less energy. Mm-hmm. Therefore, fewer shits to give and being just like. You know what, I'm not gonna think about it too long. It's making me happy. And there's not a whole lot that's making me happy when I'm sleep deprived or whatever else, or like not getting time to myself and play is so, art and play as a form of self-expression is so important to, to me, particularly the last seven and a half years of being a parent. it's allowed me to override a lot of the kind of messages that I've heard before. So, for example, for me, who's always worked in a creative agency but not part of the creative team, I've always been told, you are not creative. Don't touch it. You can't tell us what to do, blah, blah, blah. You are not creative. That is the overriding message that I would always get. And discovering more recently that actually I am really good at some forms of art and that I do have a creative side has been a big, a big transition for me. because mainly being able to discover that because I don't care that much anymore, what those people think. but, but equally, this is something, and this is why I'm so fascinated about your practice and how you shift between the more commercial side and the more kind of, I don't wanna say abstract, but you know, the stuff that has less of a commercial purpose initially, and you dunno where it's gonna go because, for example, one of my best friends is, a very talented graphic designer. She's a, a creative director, a very hot. Design agency. She's also a phenomenal artist and she actually did a fine art degree, but then went into graphic design for lots of reasons. A big part of that being financial. And she was living at, you know, having to pay away in London. more recently she's restarted in force, her kind of artistic practice, and I've been telling her for years, you need to say you're an artist, you need to sell it. People are asking me this stuff on my walls, I've pleaded you to give me. And to buy from you. Like people are asking me where it's from. Oh wow. And she's like, I can't call myself an artist. Like you literally did a fine art degree and you are one of the best creative directors I know. But there is this kind of sense of putting yourself out there under a term. And I know it, a lot of it's about judgment and, the fear of people's subjective opinions of your art. That she can't logic her way around, even though she's a very, very logical person. Mm-hmm. And, and so I just, I see it show up with so many very talented people. Mm, I see that too. I see that too. It makes me so sad. It, it really makes me sad because I think there's a lot of stuff being hidden and not shared. Yeah. It's to do with the self. Ultimately it's to do with, it's exposure, isn't it? A lot of us, well, what I was gonna say, go down this path That is, there's a, there's this sort of, not good enough or, or a thing that many people carry around with them. And that comes from, comes from your, your personal history. But, or just how society sets, sets itself up and, especially the fine art scene. Huh. You have to be quite robust to sort of ignore something. It's very interesting. It's like what you were saying before about as you get older, it's, what term did you use? Less shits to fewer shits given. Like, I, I don't shits given. I I love that. I mean, that is, that is the, the more polite way of saying it. yeah. No, no, but yeah, it's literally I'm at capacity. Like yesterday I truly was at capacity and I was like, one more person. One more person. Do something that is even vaguely out line and you're gonna get an absolute roller king. Yeah, they did. One was a child and one was a client. It's like, I'm at capacity, but I, yeah. I think that's a really powerful thing though. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. There's not time for it. No, there's not time for it. You don't have the mental bandwidth capacity to, that's just like expand. You have to do the thing. Yeah. Like there is no, and I think that is one of the superpowers of becoming a parent and, and at least in my book, has been a big overrider of a tendency towards people pleasing or, you know, doing the thing that is more acceptable. A bit like when you were told to be less weird. You're like, there's a hundred of those other illustrators. Why do you want another one? Like, why not have something different? You know, like to the, the kind of. Pressure to join the homogeny. I just like, yeah, the, the less energy you have, the less likely you are to go do the thing that society's telling you to do. I feel like, and also that's energy sapping, you know? Mm-hmm. If you are, if you're trying to be something that you're actually not, it, it, it will, it will drain your energy anyway. So why not the embrace, Embrace your, your, you know, your, your individuality, however that looks, and yeah, and that's gonna increase your energy. You'll be, you could do more of your, be more authentically weird. Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think that's a great point to finish off on. And I, I think perhaps to, you know, back to my question about, do you think that agent experience are necessary for that kind of self-trust? Or can younger artists get there faster? I think knowing that you are gonna get there and enjoy the journey and you will get to the point where you're old and knackered and have fewer shit to give and, and, you know. Relish the prospect of that, and consciously move towards it. But no, you can't shortcut your way. hmm. I don't think so. And I don't think it, there'd be no point anyway because it's, it's, It's the journey that's always gonna be the, the, you know, the interesting part. Yeah, absolutely. If you get the destination too soon, where are you gonna go from there? But, look, I'm conscious of time. Adam, thank you so much for joining us and, discussing so freely with me today. And, I know there's gonna be a lot of people who wanna find more, find out more about your work and, and where to find you. Where do you suggest people head to, to go see, your stuff? Is probably the best places. is I just discovered, after years of calling myself Adam Graf illustration, graph with two Fs as in diamonds. That it was way funnier to call myself Adam Graph Art, because then it says Adam graph fart. and I'm amazed that I haven't, I had to change everything. So now I'm Adam, graph fart or art, and yeah, I'm surprised I didn't, I didn't realize that way earlier, another journey that feels like in one sentence, why you were invited into Hero of Switzerland. Probably given the way you described them initially. Exactly. Childish humor. You can never get enough of it. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Adam, for joining us. Pleasure. Thank you. It's been really great.